Max & SCS - 1.6, 1.27 and Mod Backward Compatibility

[BK Vissers]

Dear Max, and the other nice folks at SCS,

The additions to the game you have planned and mentioned in the 1.6 beta (and presumably to appear in ETS2 1.27) sound wonderful - things that many people have asked for and are excited to see. I am as well.

But I am also concerned. Here's why - and I ask for your input.

I am not a modder. I can barely make some basic skins for BDFs and even at that my skills are limited. So I rely on the kindness and generosity of this community for much of what I do. Modders who create fantastic trucks for us to all enjoy.

But I am seeing on mod hosting sites, as well as some threads here - that the latest version (the beta) is causing major compatibility issues with mods. It was my understanding that the system would be backward compatible but that does not appear to be the case. Mods that worked well in 1.5 do not in 1.6.

So I am concerned - I have created a story here in two threads (links on the images in my signature) and I use both vanilla SCS trucks as well as a number of mod trucks for it. I'm worried that by using mods, I am pushing myself into a corner where, once 1.6/1.27 comes out, I will have to stop what I am doing because many of these will simply no longer function and I haven't the ability to fix them on my own.

Can you give some more clear idea as to what is happening with regards to supporting mods - more specifically trucks and trailers? I've spoken to some in the community who have contributed significantly in terms of making mods and they too are concerned that they will have to relearn and redo a great deal. It's quite discouraging.

I would like to add - since a written medium doesn't always convey tone - that I am not ranting or angry, I am concerned and asking for your input, reassurance, advice.

[Mohegan13]

PMG format update: The game will continue to support the old version (albeit with log warnings).
Mods made with the new PMGs will NOT work on older game versions.

Some mods will require updating because a lot of things have changed under the hood. Many trucks will need updating because of the changes relating to animations and bones ( i know very little about this aspect, but it is the reason a lot of trucks are crashing the game when you try and drive them).

While SCS do try and be as friendly to modders as possible when it comes to game updates there is inevitably times when updates have to be made that simply breaks mods in one way or another. When SCS changed the paint and trailer systems in a previous update, I had over 288 trailers to update, 200+ ai painted trucks, and over 100 painted ai vans to update. Yes it's a pain in the rear end, but it was worth the change, most modders recognise that change is often for the better no matter how annoying it might be at the time.

I can understand your frustrations, but please remember ATS is in beta at the moment, so you shouldn't really be using it with mods (though we all do). By the time the public release rolls around most mods should be updated or ready to release. Modders who play both games will know the changes coming for ETS2 so they can update that now without having to wait for the open beta. Yes it's possible some mods might not get updated, particularly those that were made using outdated tools that are not being updated (namely Blender2scs) the modder may choose not to bother, it's unfortunate but it happens.

FYI as far as trailers go there should be no change. My trailers all work fine they just need updating for the new PMG version.

[BK Vissers]

Thank you for the response. As I'm not a modder, your PMG format update is not something I understand. Is this a new development and this format was not going to be supported but now it is?

[JUseeTV]

As I'm not a modder I would assume it's like a new smartphone with better quality and performance but I could be totaly wrong...

[Wolfi]

Well, I'm not Max and I'm not a nice SCS guy (probably not a nice guy either ), still I think I may be able to answer at least some of your questions.

1.6/1.27 game patches introduce new model (pmg) format for both games. This new fromat, from what I understand, allows GPU calculation, instead of CPU calculation, which I guess should improve game stability. (and seems to be a major step in improving game engine)

Of course changed model format means that ALL mods which add custom models of any kind to the game (truck, trailer, AI, buldings, map) are now considered as OUTDATED and in general should be updated to use new game formats.

ATS 1.6 (and probably ETS2 1.27) IS BACKWARDS COMPATIBLE, this means that the game is able to load and use old model format, it will just generate yellow warnings in your gamelog (they do not affect the gameplay at all) Those mods which were made properly will work just fine. (those that don't follow SCS modding instructions may cause game crashes, but it's a very rare situation) So mod authors have plenty of time to update their work.

From the good news, moders who switched to official SCS Blender Tools (for example Smarty and SiSL), already have a full pipeline to be able to convert their models and update them for the latest patches. In BT it takes literally about a minute to update a basic mod, so some mods will be ready for you when the game updates are out officially.

It's also worth noting that models created in new format will not work at all in previous game versions. So a mod for ATS 1.6 will cause ATS 1.5 to crash.

ATS is in beta at the moment, so you shouldn't really be using it with mods (though we all do).

Speak for yourself Vanilla game FTW!!

[Mohegan13]

I'm not the most technically minded so I will just quote what Max said in the Public Beta topic:

format was changed mainly to be able to perform skinning on gfx card instead of cpu, which is part of rendering engine improvement.

So people like me with a budget system, but good GFX card should see a little improvement in frame rate and what not.

[Reinhard]

I've spoken to some in the community who have contributed significantly in terms of making mods and they too are concerned that they will have to relearn and redo a great deal. It's quite discouraging.

No offense, but these people you have talked with must be rather new to this modding business. How can anybody expect that mods doesn't need to change while substituting complex parts of an ever-developing game?

In the time since I'm modding, the PMG format has changed 3 times. But this is not the point. PMG changes are usually handled by the 3D editor import/export mechanism the modder uses. No big deal. Other changes which come frequently are much, much more stressing and demanding.

If one releases a mod to the public he should be very aware that things are not done with the "release". It will be, in many cases, only a first release. Those who don't want to support a mod in the long run should be very aware of that.

Mods for these games are living creatures, the modder have to feed and pamper them, or they die.

[BK Vissers]

No offense, but these people you have talked with must be rather new to this modding business. How can anybody expect that mods doesn't need to change while substituting complex parts of an ever-developing game?

Actually they are among the most prolific modders here. But that's beside the point.

Yes mods need updating.

What about mods that are not being actively worked on? There are plenty out there that are still in use by many, and still working under 1.5/1.26. The authors in many cases are gone, or unknown. Certainly it's desirable to have all modders perennially update their creations but I think that's not what really happens, so one would find it desirable to have the maximum backward compatibility maintained, for those with older unsupported mods.

From discussions here and in other threads, I am under the impression that the reason some even very recent mods were having issues is related to the camera, which I'm told, is supposed to be corrected. That may make the early reports of most truck mods crashing premature. Time will tell.

Thanks for posting!

[Wolfi]

I've spoken to some in the community who have contributed significantly in terms of making mods and they too are concerned that they will have to relearn and redo a great deal.

Welp.. there are generally 2 modding "schools" here: Zmod3 and Blender. From what I understand Zmod3 got an update to new formats, I'm not using it, but I assume it's not a hard task to re-import and export mods to update them, so no problem here... I guess.
For Blender, things are abit more complicated. Many moders are still using Blender2SCS (probably because they're even more stubborn and lazy than me o_O ). I admit, it was a reasonably good tool for quite a while, although it never really worked 100% properly for the ingame files. Now we have Blender Tools officially from SCS and those work just fine and are easy to use for those who took their time to learn and switch instead of complaining. Updating even a complex mod with BT takes literally minutes, (my private BT-ported version of RJL's Scania RS took exactly 3 minutes 49 seconds to update) so I don't see any issue here either. I'm preety sure that SiSL, Moh and Smarty already have their homework done and all their mods are updated and working (yaaay quality! )

What about mods that are not being actively worked on?

Those technically become dead the moment the moder decides to leave. It's just lucky that they still work on older game version. And if they were made properly, they should still work just fine on 1.6/1.27. If they don't work anymore or cause game crahses... tough luck, time to go and find new mods instead.

one would find it desirable to have the maximum backward compatibility maintained

Sure, I agree, but it's not really possible if you want the game to be updated. New things require new code, new code changes things and makes mods incompatible - that's how it works. Although there's a very easy way to keep all your mods working. Simply don't update the game, stay on your current version and you'll be fine. (just without all the new stuffs, but hey, at least your old outdated mods still work )


So to sum it up, sorry to say, but SCS most likely won't concentrate on the backwards compatibility for mods. (seeing as people complain about outdated mods not working with every single game patch )

[Mohegan13]

I'm preety sure that SiSL, Moh and Smarty already have their homework done and all their mods are updated and working (yaaay quality! )

Only the ones on Steam Workshop.

I still have 180 something mods to check for non-steam. It looks like some will have to be remade or edited as they are totally borked, which I blame b2scs for and the original mod makers.