Volvo UK Dealer error?

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GxGamer
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Re: Volvo UK Dealer error?

#21 Post by GxGamer » 26 Oct 2013 15:55

Its the damn painted mirror whichs forbids to buy the truck before level 9 in europe....
Its nice to get parts unlocked by level 4 but you cant get a truck before level 9. Epic logic.
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Re: Volvo UK Dealer error?

#22 Post by 102 » 27 Oct 2013 03:27

@thebigbadonion

I think main problem with “bringing balance” is that there is no balance at all. You noted that yourself – three trucks’ manufacturers, namely Renault, Iveco and DAF has engines which are weaker than engines from other four manufacturers and there is no way you could balance that. Adding “weaker” line of engines for new Volvo hasn’t changed the point – at the end Volvo will still have more power. There is nothing that could offset that.

Every thing from “real world” that comes to mind either will be barely noticeable, especially in comparison with work required to implement it, or it wouldn’t be popular, because of “discrimination” and/or unnecessary realism. To some extent, I agree – if I’d want realism, I’d stay in army. :)

What could be done, at least in theory?

Real-world financing programs. I guess we all can remember those “wonderful dealerships”. I’m not sure I want to see them here.

Non-flat wear&tear scale. Currently, if memory serves, for tires it is 1% (of tires’ set price) for 500 km, for engine and gearbox – it is 1% per 5000 km. Your driving stile has zero effect on wear and tear, so you can keep your engine in red zone and shift at wrong RPM – nothing will change, you won’t ruin your engine nor gearbox faster. Tires wear rate to some extent is “realistic” – 100% wear for 50000 km. It may not be 100% wear and tear IRL, but it could be wise to swap your tires, especially if road conditions are bad.

Different fuel consumption rate. To some extent it exists after recent patch, yet numbers I see somewhat contradicts those numbers I’ve seen IRL. Still, driving truck with more powerful engine may become more profitable – you drive at lower revs, thus your consumption is lower. Useful for hilly roads and/or pulling heavy cargo. However, as our good Ohaha said, with current income rates, you can flatout at red all the way and still won’t notice. Should we decrease income rates any further? I don’t know, it’s game after all.

Taxes and payments based on truck’s engine volume. We either won’t notice them again, or people wouldn’t like it for reasons I’ve mentioned earlier.

Attempt to reflect reliability. Tell me which manufacturer will allow this. There are no perfect trucks, even Volvo or Scania (since they are priciest) will fail someday somehow somewhere. How you suggest simulating bending door hinges for example (flat cab damage, like you one have during “teleport to “safe” location”)? Glitching display? How to separate display’s glitches from display’s own problems, to, say, problems caused by different resistance offered by LED in tail-lights? New truck-new problems, and lot of them, random messages “visit service ASAP”, random glitches here and there, unusual fuel consumption rate, letting you suspect your drivers (or yourself :p ) in selling your fuel?

Driver/cab relationship. For example, DAF has large cab, with nice, sturdy table, big, soft mattresses, nice heater and thick curtains, so driver could rest better. Or Renault Premium’s cab is short and narrow, so there is not enough room to stretch his legs. Or old Volvo cab is so cramped, so he keeps bumping his head or elbows into something, or pinching his fingers, trying to assemble that poor excuse for table, yet HVAC mixing fresh air and not that bad bed allows his to rest (don’t forget TV hanging above his head). Or MAN’s wheel/seat adjustments are so uncomfortable, so he couldn’t find proper position and fights with pain in the back and limbs? Or he openly hates Scania’s HVAC layout and onboard adjustment for it, plus those famous beds stretching mechanism and not that sturdy table, yet seating position and wheel adjustments are so nice, so driving it compensate for everything? How to simulate driver’s performance, if IRL his working hours are limited? Reject this reality and substitute it with our own? Add some hidden coefficient, which reflects driver’s reaction on our actions?

That’s why I see zero reason for leveling-up system. It would make sense for first playthrough, until player level-ups high enough to have access to everything, to show him (even if forcefully) all those features you added to game. I don’t like that bioware style approach to be honest.

The only other reason for leveling up I see is hypothetical system where we play for hired driver, who works for some company, which gives him truck. And if he performs well enough, they will allow him to improve truck a bit or give better truck. As for self-employed driver, especially with little amount of customization we have, I see no point in such system.

Especially for truck like Scania. It is most expensive at “day 1”, yet it is one of the weakest, even if “on paper” its stats are not the worst (yet it feels like they are). You can’t buy it day 1 with retarder, unless you sell mirrors and sun visor (and even then there is no guarantee you’ll have enough money to do that). Moreover, Scania’s leveling up makes as much sense as mass effect 3, that’s about zero. To get most powerful engine you’ll have to reach level 25 first. I don’t remember exact numbers, but I guess it’s at least 30 hours of driving, if not more (we can make approximate calculations). For all other trucks (excluding new Volvo, haven’t checked that out yet), you’ll get most powerful engine at level 16. And, in case with old Volvo, your engine will still be more powerful. I haven’t performed tests after 1.7 (even after 1.6), since game teleported all my trucks back to Poznan, but before that, Scania’s performance was closer to MAN or Majestic, not to Volvo, though torque values suggests opposite. And like it’s not enough, Scania’s Opticruise offers zero advantage over any other gearbox. So, what’s the point buying Scania, unless you like it very much?

That “three jobs first” rule, to get mail from bank, and “reach level 3 first, to get €500000 loan” rule are about as meaningful as leveling up. That could make sense for ersatz-tutorial, since we have no normal tutorial and driving school, but no as “new game+”. That’s why I’m against that.
I’d welcome “real” driving school and training ground (available for visitation later) with open arms – place allowing you to test and master your skills for difficult situations in safe (more or less) environment, without need to master them on roads and then load game if something went sideways.
No need to point me at Scania simulator. It is separate game, and if memory serves, controls model is different there. And please, no “it’s just the game” reply, I have idiosyncrasy over it. :)

As for New Stralis, I think it’s now new names for different cabs – hi-street, hi-road, hi-way. And, if memory serves, you can't get Renaul Magnum till level 12.
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Re: Volvo UK Dealer error?

#23 Post by murdoch82 » 27 Oct 2013 04:16

I agree with you fully 102, but at the same time, that leveling system sort in no meaningful way at all keeps you going. When I frist hit the level where I maxed out the "skills" I stoped playing for a while, could not motive my self to drive more. Now I play again alot and I love it but its something in most of us that want that reward. Thats why games like WoW are so popular, player get a treat for his hard work. We all know this.. :D

I dont think going ultra realistic on damage and wear and tear is needed. But something needs to be in place to balance the economics, I hate my level 41 profile just because I have 27 million euro on it and nothing to do with it. I could get 50 more trucks I guess, and then go even more crazy over all the gold I get! ;P

Ending here before this turn in to another of my now probably famous rants. :]
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Re: Volvo UK Dealer error?

#24 Post by 102 » 27 Oct 2013 11:06

@murdoch82

Yes and no. ETS2 is interesting enough on it’s own so I do not need any additional incentives to keep going – simply playing is rewarding enough. I like traveling (though usually my attention concentrated on the road, not landscape), I like driving (though I miss very friendly 1.3 drivers), that’s why I’m still playing, even after reaching level 50+.

Those skills were merely simple means to access different types of cargo, allowing you to pull something lighter than 25 tonnes of peas – quite useful for earlier, weaker trucks, so you wouldn’t have to grind your teeth while slowly climbing on very long, even if not that steep hill. The fact that pulling Fireworks gives me more money than pulling concrete slabs is just nice addition. Though I don’t care, really – for now I use money to buy new garages and fill them with drivers, though till level 25 I didn’t even bothered with expanding my fleet. Or with upgrading my truck – excluding most powerful engine installed at level 16, retarder, installed at purchase and sun visor removed some time later, my DAF is as basic as it was.

To be honest, I hated level-ups, because I kept my driver’s Long Distance skill at two points, it fitted my schedule. Those two points allow deliveries up to 550 km, they generally could be completed under 30 minutes, exactly the time I could allocate for ETS2. Few weeks back I allocated four remaining skillpoints and haven’t been bothered with level-up messages ever since, though I do miss short deliveries, kinda dislike travels through Channel. So yeah, I’d welcome some sort of optional limitation for your deliveries. But I digress.

I don’t know much for WoW, haven’t played it. My experience with Blizzard’s games has ended on D2:LoD. And it wasn’t loot drop that made my playing. Yeah, sure – the thing my smite-based paladin needed most was necromancer’s wand. Couldn’t live without one. :) I stopped playing it because it became boring and even getting new, class-oriented loot couldn't change that. Unfortunately that's true for many other games I haven't finished.

I don’t know how many people will agree with me, but I don’t need treat to keep going. Moreover, I dislike games following this pattern, because for me it is generally a sign that developers can’t think of something better to keep us playing their game. Generally I split games on story-driven, exploration-driven, and gameplay-driven. If game fails to deliver in one of three, I doubt I’ll be playing it for long. Luckily for me, ETS2 delivers, and not in one, but in two categories. SCS, if you reading this - my sincerest gratitude.


As for realism, that’s my point exactly. ETS2 is wonderful just because of all features it has. And some of those it doesn’t have. It is relaxing and user-friendly (well, few rough edges were added by one of patches, Ok, but nobody’s perfect).
Of course, I won’t say no to addition of those little things that make our life easier, or to addition of more small and nice details, like more types of vehicles, different weather conditions, rumble striles, more detailed and more accurate trucks, list goes on. Something that make game feels natural, without being too demanding or complicated (pokemons are serious business :lol: ). Take that music that is playing in your garages. I think it was superb decision, I applaud to person who thought about that and insisted on implementing this feature in game. It is very small detail, but it is there and I like it. They say devil in details. Well, that’s where ETS2 shines, and, say, ME3 sucks. :D

Regardless, my passage in previous post was less on “spherical realism in vacuum” and more on inability to balance trucks’ inequality, because trucks aren’t born equal. ;) Maybe that’s good. Unless you’re going to pull something heavy on weak truck through mountains and find yourself polishing tarmac because there is not enough traction. :)

As for excess of money you have - give them to charity: break rules, got fines, pay them, help support Europe economy. ;)

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Re: Volvo UK Dealer error?

#25 Post by thebigbadonion » 27 Oct 2013 12:31

While I see your point, I guess it would be nice just have a free roam mode or something where you don't worry about owning trucks, levelling and all the rest of it. Just pick your truck and off you go kind of thing.

What you have to remember though is ETS may be a simulator to a point, but it's also a game. Removal of the of levelling, or money system altogether takes a big chunk of it away.

Their's a lot of parts of the game that aren't even remotely realistic, such as the way you go about the jobs, real truckers don't just drive up to a warehouse and ask if they need a trailer moving, which is essentially what you do in ETS. Jobs have to be booked and recorded, usually involving contracts to move cargo from one place to another regularly.

As for cab differences, the only way I see this being done, is by adding a resting bonus to certain truck and cabs and types, where say the daf super space or whatever allows you to drive few hours longer after resting, than the scania highline, But I'm not sure how popular that would really be. Especially considering a real truck can only drive for 8 hours is it? with a mandatory break after 4 hours. But adding such restrictions would kill the game play.

As for balance to the current levelling system, this is more important at the start of the game. Most of the starter trucks are quite similar, offering mostly around 300hp engines. The trucks such as the Renault, which don't have that many upgrade options are cheaper to buy, so don't always make a bad truck to start off in, or give to your drivers. You can always trade it in for something else later. The Volvo is the odd one out at 540hp, because you're using the high end fh16 version, which is much more in line with the V8 Scanias that unlock much later . On my current game I'm only level 10 and already unlocked the 700hp volvo, which isn't that much different to the 730hp scania, which I won't unlock until about level 23. At level 16 I'll unlock the 750hp Volvo. SCS obviously put in a system to make you earn the higher end trucks. It takes a lot of work to finally get that top end Scania, but only ever having the fh16, (until 1.7) gave you too easy of a way out, and made it so you didn't have to work at all for a decent truck, which is why I felt like it was pretty much cheating to start off with a Volvo. But now we have the new FH, the volvos in theory should now be more balanced although the 420hp Volvo is still more powerful than the others, but not by such a big gap. They can compensate for this though, by putting it out of reach of someone who immediately took out a loan to buy a truck

Of course none of this means realism, but it' a system SCS added them selves, personally I like the idea of levelling, to buy new trucks, and upgrade your skills, it gives you something to work towards. It just needs tweeking a little is all :p

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Re: Volvo UK Dealer error?

#26 Post by n4gix » 27 Oct 2013 20:03

This thread has wandered quite a way off track, but one thing I'd like to see would be a set of sliders in the UI where one could set a min/max distance range for job offers. As was mentioned above, sometimes I'd rather drive <550nm jobs and manage to get in three or four during a session, rather than have only one >1000nm job.

Oddly enough, I get my greatest pleasure from parking the load...

...just as in flying the challenge of landing is much more fun than taking off and flying for several hours.
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Re: Volvo UK Dealer error?

#27 Post by 102 » 28 Oct 2013 03:09

@thebigbadonion
At level 30 we open each and every possible skill, and, given recent fuel simulation option added, we can decrease that value to level 24, because game won’t take EcoDriving into consideration anymore. I’d even say that after you got all 6 points in ADR, 1 in Long Distance, High Value, Fragile, and 2 points in Just-in-time deliveries, leveling up is already meaningless. Because you have access to all types of jobs and adding skillpoints to those skills merely increase your salary. So we’ll need to reach level 11 to take away big chunk of game and make it blend and tasteless? I doubt anyone would agree with that statement. ;) Because that’s where game only starts – and you have access to each and every job possible.

As for jobs, I guess it depends on country and types of jobs. I think, excluding paperwork (no, thanks, I have a lot of it at my IRL job, I do not want to do that in game too), conversation with local dispatch service (replaced with nice “job offer” screen), waiting period till your trailer (if you have your own) will be loaded, or loading dock will be freed, etc, game “simulates” self-employed driver work just fine, right between being easy and interesting, and not being realistically boring (how about looking for latrine on highway, because food in last canteen was horrible and awoken not-flame-breathing beast inside your belly? ;) ) . After all, you can always leave your truck at loading dock, to “simulate” exiting it and going to local office for paperwork (you can solve some crosswords). Metagaming at best. :)
Of course, I agree, game does not offer you any more or less fixed types of deliveries, say, you regularly (if not constantly) ship certain type of goods from one company to another through loop of very small selection of cities. For example Berlin>Frankfurt>Linz>Bratislava>Berlin.
I wouldn’t mind if we had chance to organize proper “shuttle” runs for our hired drivers. They could bring less money, but at least they’ll never return empty in return. It would be nice if we could organize supply chains with them. But for simplicity purposes, I see no problems with system we have now.

Simulating different cabs will be meaningless as well. First, because we are different, and what can be irritating for me, could be fine for you, and vice-versa. Small, short guy may won’t have problems within Renault Premium (what so “premium” there?) cab, while tall hefty guy will curse even for Scania or Volvo cabs, asking for higher and bigger cab of MAN, Magnum or DAF. One person may fell in love with Mercedes’ controls’ layout, another may call it cluttered and ask for something for something simpler. Even Isri seats installed in different trucks could receive different reception.
We are different, trucks are different, and the only way you could squeeze into common lowest denominator is to remove any leveling requirement whatsoever. What’s the point – DAF SuperSpace cab available at level 8, while Space cab plus available later, IIRC level 12, don’t remember really.

So no, I don’t think putting old Volvos out of reach will be “fair”, “honest” or "balancing". Even adding lower displacement engines wouldn’t change the point much. Especially if you remove higher displacement engines from earlier levels. Because currently Volvo is one and only way to pull heavy cargo (and early cargos are all heavy) on early levels with less strain. Game should be fun first, and if someone doesn’t want to grind his teeth trying to pull that gravel out of quarry in weakest Iveco – why not give him such an option? Maybe later player will find Zen driving less powerful truck, who knows. But limiting him to a point where “all trucks should be equal”… Nuh-uh. It will remove whole point of adding different trucks with different properties.
For example, I like old Volvo display, it is best in game, big and easily readable. Yet I don’t like side mirrors, they are partially cut off by field of view, plus passenger’s side mirror is partially closed by virtual mirror (I’d welcome their relocation a bit higher). And despite Volvo being most powerful truck out there, it’s a bit uncomfortable to drive it. New Volvo, to some extent, suffers less from cut-off mirrors, but it falls into most massive category of trucks – trucks with displays too small and not that easy to read. :) So I’ll pass. Scania is almost second best, but wide angle mirror is cut off, I don’t understand parts’ progression and pricing, and I can’t’ get rid of feeling that till level 12 Scania feels underpowered. Moreover, even the most powerful Scania in my test-drives shawed results which were closer to less powerful Majestic and MAN, not Volvo. So I’ll pass again.

That leveling-up distribution, actually, is one of few pet peeves I have with ETS2. My main requirement for games – they shouldn’t be irritating or annoying. Because if they are, I’ll stop playing them. Not being able to buy certain truck till certain level is one of few things that irritate me. Why I should wait till level 12 to be able to buy new Iveco, or Magnum, or wait till level 9 to buy new Volvo? I could live with less powerful version, yes, but if I want to buy certain truck from very start, I don’t want to have those “3 necessary jobs” to get “mail of happiness” from Bank, telling me they can give me loan, and from main dealership, telling me they have widest selection of models.
If memory serves, those vehicle manufacturers who have their own banks, sell more, because they can offer proper package to their customers. And if I want to buy Scania with retarder at day 1, I don’t want to remove mirrors and sun visor to afford it. I doubt 2 grands in loan would make that difference for a bank, no? They just gave you 100K more.
tl;dr
I don’t mind if they keep some sort of tracking our progress and tie it distance covered, for example, and it would be a bit more logical than some virtual experience point (I hauled ammo in army, I can’t say I gained more experience in haulage from it, in comparison to experience I gained when I hauled water, fuel, or food stuffs :)). However, I’d welcome, and with open arms, reworked ability to purchase any truck, at least in basic configuration, at day one, job 0.

As for “Work towards”. This game isn’t about destination, it’s about journey. So I don’t exactly understand why would someone need incentives in form of “achievements” or “skills” or “most powerful engine” (which it isn’t :p ) to move further. To each his own, I guess.


@n4gix
Yes, start and finish are about as funny and rewarding as smoothless driving for hours. In this game - especially. Strange we forced to distribute skillpoints to have higher rating in exchange for lack of shorter-distance jobs.

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murdoch82
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Re: Volvo UK Dealer error?

#28 Post by murdoch82 » 30 Nov 2013 05:21

random add.

I'm watching Stobart trucks n trailers, and Ashley Maddock or what ever his name is... has a new FH, and guess what... when he hook up a trailer his break pressure goes so low the handbreak wont release, and found that funny, we have the same problem in the game. That sometimes it wont be up to pressure for no real reason. ;P

Have not seen it in a while now, maybe its fixed but it used to happen often, mostly when going on the ferries. :)

I started a new profile a few days ago, picked Luxemburg as start since there is a Volvo dealer there, and I got me self a FH with 420 hp, thats a nice number to start at, its powerful enough atleast. Starting with 320 hp is abit low... ;P
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