I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

Some newbie driver
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Re: I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

#41 Post by Some newbie driver » 17 Nov 2020 20:59

Googlefluff wrote:
17 Nov 2020 19:49
I'm curious where you live, because here in British Columbia stop signs are positioned 100% as poorly as they are in the game, and the US follows mostly the same standard from what I've seen. The line is nearly always set too far back from the intersection, behind the crosswalk if there is one, meaning you either have to stop twice (what you're supposed to do) or stop past the line (what most people do).
What that "most people" don't understand is that the stop line isn't placed randomly or on purpose to bother them. It is placed where the stopping vehicles could be clearly seen from the other road.

Is the visibility for the non-stopping drivers that should be granted, not for the driver on the stopped vehicle. Drivers on the road with right of pass need to know that a vehicle is approaching the junction, so they be aware. At the stop point, the visibility for the stopping driver is irrelevant. And yes, that means most times you should had to stop twice, on the mark and later in a point where you will have visibility for your maneuver. It's done that way on purpose.

It's made that way because in lots of stop places and for lots of vehicles, the point where the stopping driver will have visibility is a point where it's vehicle front part will be already inside the other road limits. If you stop directly in the point were you could see the incoming traffic, there's the risk that your vehicle enters the other road lane and got hit for a vehicle that was too near to see you in time to let space (and you wouldn't see it, of course, because you are moving there to be able to see something).

I've been living for 15 years just in front of a a blind street cross with a stop. There had been more than 30 accidents in that time span (and countless "almost", I've been almost crashed 3 times). ALL of them exactly the same. ALL of them neighbors of the zone that known there will be no visibility at the stop line so they stopped straight further. ALL of them overconfident and blaming the "idiot" that put the stop line "too much backwards where I can't see nothing". And by pure luck nobody had been severely injured so far. But it's just a matter of time and neither the neighborhood associations nor the city council know what to do in there so people stop to risk their lives so stupidly.

Unless miss-placements (there's always some, but they are exceptions), stop lines are placed where they must, not where some people would like to (until it's too late for them to regret).

Regards

PS: And regarding all of this and the AI: when we stop/yield pass the signed line, the AI will treat us as a danger of potential collision. That's why AI stops so many times unnecessarily. Of course, they could improve a lot the AI so it calculates if our real trajectory is of collision of we would finally stop just at the border (what our brains do IRL constantly at driving). But that's way more CPU costly than to act as it actually does. As like so many other thinks we all want SCS to improve in the AI. That's why they had to simplify it till the point it behaves so ridiculously so many times. And in a game that it's already on permanent CPU bottleneck, every improvement that requires more CPU here means to take it from other places (first candidate: less FPS). SCS can tune parameters for the "safety distances" the AI considers when taking its decisions (I'm sure they had done that at least once this year). But they can't change the general behavior of those decisions, the way they are chosen, without cause consequences somewhere else. Not yet, hope soon.

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supersobes
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Re: I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

#42 Post by supersobes » 17 Nov 2020 21:20

@Some newbie driver There's a couple of other reasons for stop line placement as well. It allows space for a crosswalk (either explicitly marked or not) in front of the stopping vehicle. It is always safer for pedestrians to cross in front of the vehicle where the driver can see them. Another reason why stop lines are placed where they are is to allow large trucks and busses to make turns in the intersection. If a vehicle fails to stop at the stop line and encroaches on the intersection, it may prevent a truck or bus on the priority road from making a turn. If a truck on the priority road was making a left turn onto the secondary road, the stop line would be strategically placed so that the rear of the trailer passes just in front of the stopped vehicle on the secondary road. And if the truck was making a right turn from the priority road onto the secondary road, the front of the tractor would need to swing out into the other line just in front of the stopped vehicle so that the trailer can make its way around the turn without going off the edge of the road.

Some newbie driver
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Re: I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

#43 Post by Some newbie driver » 17 Nov 2020 21:55

Yes you are right, those are other reasons that add up to the final placement. I focused in the topic of the visibility they were talking mostly. I find that's what bothers most the drivers always when talking about those thinks (to have to do the "double stop", that irritates soooo many people) and probably the root of lots of stops done wrong. And TBH, I've done wrong several stops in all my years of driving (the days I don't remember what happens in front of my home :rol:). But at least I don't lie myself saying the line wasn't well placed as I've heard sooo many times.

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genbrien
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Re: I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

#44 Post by genbrien » 17 Nov 2020 22:09

canuckster wrote:
15 Nov 2020 16:41
how AI traffic is getting progressively worse
Wonder if its getting worse, or if it was always that dumb, but we barely noticed because the maps were simple and easy for that basic AI
Now that the maps are getting more complicated/unique, it might be more challenging for the AIs


SCS need to address basic things that are present since the launch of the game though, like when the traffic stops on merging in the highway, and other things that were already mentioned in this topic.

I'm doing most of my trips on the road's shoulder, because there at least, I wont get hit

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Re: I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

#45 Post by Googlefluff » 17 Nov 2020 22:34

Some newbie driver wrote:
17 Nov 2020 20:59
What that "most people" don't understand is that the stop line isn't placed randomly or on purpose to bother them. It is placed where the stopping vehicles could be clearly seen from the other road.

Is the visibility for the non-stopping drivers that should be granted, not for the driver on the stopped vehicle. Drivers on the road with right of pass need to know that a vehicle is approaching the junction, so they be aware. At the stop point, the visibility for the stopping driver is irrelevant. And yes, that means most times you should had to stop twice, on the mark and later in a point where you will have visibility for your maneuver. It's done that way on purpose.

It's made that way because in lots of stop places and for lots of vehicles, the point where the stopping driver will have visibility is a point where it's vehicle front part will be already inside the other road limits. If you stop directly in the point were you could see the incoming traffic, there's the risk that your vehicle enters the other road lane and got hit for a vehicle that was too near to see you in time to let space (and you wouldn't see it, of course, because you are moving there to be able to see something).
I don't disagree that this is done on purpose, I simply don't believe the reasoning is sound. Setting the line back serves no purpose if a driver at a stop sign has to pull past it before they can see crossing traffic. Placing the line at the threshold of the crossroad affords the greatest visibility for all parties involved, including those on the main road. It's simply not true that most intersections require you to pull into traffic to see, and if any intersection requires you to do this, the design is faulty and an alternative solution should be found. It's true that if a driver gets into an accident because they went without seeing properly and claims it was because the line was too far back, they are 100% at fault, but that doesn't mean the design can't also be improved.

It's also not true that the safest place for pedestrians is in front of vehicles waiting at a stop sign. The safest place for a crosswalk is one car length or more back from the intersection so drivers can yield to vehicles and pedestrians separately. So many pedestrians are hit by drivers who's attention is divided between the crosswalk and vehicle traffic, and who begin to move when they see a gap in the cars but don't notice that a pedestrian has started crossing from the other direction.

Now traffic lights are a different story because, like @supersobes said, the line often needs to be set back to allow larger vehicles to turn, and the crosswalks are light-controlled as opposed to ones where cars are required to yield. This is why I'm in favour of abolishing right turns on red altogether.

But anyway, this is getting off topic.

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Re: I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

#46 Post by abasstreppas » 17 Nov 2020 22:42

I have always defended the development of the Ai the past couple of years as I thought the behaviour in general had been quite good, but as I said earlier in this thread, it has been a decline in the development/behaviour these last patches. Maybe it all started with the Beyond the Baltic Sea, I don't know, but it was in that area I first noticed the more "crazy" Ai's. At first I thought it was intended, inspired by all those (mostly Russian) dash-cam videos on Youtube. After a while I started to doubt that, especially when that "craziness" started to occur in other regions during the later patches ;)

The Ai behaviour is very important for the whole feeling of the game. I love driving on Autobahn when there's a lot of traffic around, some vehicles exiting and others entering the main pathway, and when everything is smooth and "synchronised". Of course things should break that smoothness from time to time by some random behaviour, but not as it is now when you almost expect something gonna happen every time an Ai is close to you. 90% of the incidents are always recurring (some mentioned already in this thread), the rest 10% are more random and those are in my opinion good for the game ;)
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Re: I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

#47 Post by nautofon » 17 Nov 2020 22:57

Regarding stop signs, it may be worth pointing out that these are somewhat rare in Europe. The vast majority of European intersections only use yield signs. With ATS having evolved from ETS2 and with Prague-based SCS being less familiar with America than with Europe, it isn't hard to see why the AI would tend to do funny business at intersections with stop signs. (Even though the traffic laws and actual IRL traffic behavior regarding stop signs seem to be similar in Europe and America.)

BTW, I don't agree that there is zero ROI for AI improvements. It's already been mentioned in this thread that the bad state of the AI causes some players to turn away from ATS. Those players are probably less likely to purchase future DLC.
To drive in ATS without navigation, it's helpful to use a physical map (for highways) and driving directions (for inside cities).

Some newbie driver
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Re: I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

#48 Post by Some newbie driver » 17 Nov 2020 23:07

The ROI on AI improvements isn't zero, on the contrary, it's ENORMOUS. Because with an AI the kind there's in other games we could really thing we would be driving on a different game.

But if you say it for my PS words 2 messages ago (if not, never mind); it's not a problem of ROI on the changes to be done on the AI behavior. The problem is that they had to change almost all the game from the very basis. And when they had done that, they could improve a lot everything, AI included. So, it's not just a question of ROI, it's a question of time needed to do all they need to do while they keep releasing content to keep the game and the company alive.

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Re: I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

#49 Post by angrybirdseller » 18 Nov 2020 06:51

AI can be improved its requires coding and lots beta testing and scripting. The AI needs tweaking in ATS to adjust to move complicated road layouts in the more current DLCs.

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Re: I'm sorry this has to be said, the terrible state of AI traffic

#50 Post by Bag of Donuts » 18 Nov 2020 13:05

Things that shall not be spoken of, A.I and 8x4's!

But seriously, this is getting ridiculous. A.I should most definitely be improved before anymore graphical updates, because I am afraid it is just going to continue to decline with each update.

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