Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#381 Post by Reignman » 25 Feb 2021 12:21

Oh man, this almost makes me want to cry, knowing I no longer live near a Micro Center. They have 80 of the 3060 in stock at launch and don't open until 10am. That means I still have 4 hours to make the 2 hour drive haha. If I knew there weren't already more than 80 people camped out front, I'd be tempted. Those prices though, dang. Only that EVGA looks reasonable. They haven't listed the specs of any of them yet. But nah, I think I gotta hold out for something better now. There's a 3080 selling for $700 at Newegg, so I'd rather buy one of those.

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Some newbie driver
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#382 Post by Some newbie driver » 25 Feb 2021 16:00

Reignman wrote: 25 Feb 2021 00:49Yeah only ethereum is nerfed, but it's by far the most profitable atm.
To be exact, they forcefully nerf the FLOPs throughput of the card if they detect the very specific GPU-usage behavior that has the current Ethereum mining algorithm. Any other algorithm with other behavior will be unaffected, either if they are used for other cryptocurrencies or if Ethereum decides to change its own (wouldn't be the first time)
Reignman wrote: 25 Feb 2021 00:49Oh I think they could figure it out and keep it all organized.
Oh, for sure they can, but it takes time to do it right and avoid potential catastrophic mistakes. And all for what? After all, those retailers ARE selling the products and making profit. Who buys them is absolutely irrelevant for they counting books.
Reignman wrote: 25 Feb 2021 00:49What about an encrypted URL instead of random? Which would basically serve the same purpose as far as bots are concerned.
Encrypted URL serve only so the users of the webpage can't understand the meaning of the info sent on the URL, thus unable to know which values are correct to insert them directly (like if you would jump fropm one Wikipedia article from another just changing the URL as it contains the title of the article). But the URL keeps being only one and always the same for every different webpage (for every different product in the e-shop, in this case). So, once known the URL, nothing prevents the bots to keep smashing it.
Reignman wrote: 25 Feb 2021 00:49Refusing to be abused is how I ended up in this situation to begin with lol.
Nope, you ended in that situation because it happened a worldwide scenario that we had not got never in history so nobody could had guessed how bad everything could had evolved. The same nobody could had predicted then the next crypto-buble so you could had not based your purchases on a hypothetical future profit (that would had been the tale of the dairymaid).

Regards
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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#383 Post by Reignman » 26 Feb 2021 01:01

Well I guess I was wrong about more than 80 people camping out at Micro Center. They still had 22 of the 3060's available 2 hours after they opened, and finally sold out about 2 hours after that. They had no other 3000 series in stock the entire day. Best Buy only had 2 models available and they were sold out almost immediately. I couldn't even find the 3060's on Amazon, their site is so unorganized and they don't have many filters. The part picker site they use didn't even have the 3060 listed as an option until several hours after launch, and it still looks like it's under construction.

And Newegg actually had 4 models available at the MSRP of $329. I was shocked lol. Some were as high as $520. And the good news is, they didn't make them available to the public. Their entire 3060 stock went into the shuffle, so that's a relief. I entered a chance for each of the ones below $400. I know I said I wanted a 3060ti or better for mining, but it's hard to pass them up at $329, and I need a GPU. I'm still going to keep trying to get a 3080 at a decent price, and if I do, I can sell the 3060. But sadly, I didn't win any of them in the shuffle, so my misery continues.

I watched all the reviews of the 3060 and everyone was pretty "meh" about it. In some gaming benchmarks it performed like a 2070 Super and in others like a 2060 Super, but overall it was about 15% better than a 2060, but at the same MSRP price. Scalpers are actually selling the 2060 for $700-1000 right now lol. I wish I would have got one 6 months ago when they were $310. That would have been quite the investment haha. The 3060 was much better when it came to productivity benchmarks, so that's encouraging at least.

EDIT: Crypto currency seems to be dropping pretty quickly these past few days. Most of them hit their peak at the beginning of the week, but yeah, they're all trending downward at a rapid pace. So yeah maybe I better not spend $700+ on a GPU lol. I did predict that though. I said you watch, I'll buy an expensive GPU and suddenly the market will crash. I don't even need to buy one, I just need to think about buying one to make the market crash xD.
Some newbie driver
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#384 Post by Some newbie driver » 26 Feb 2021 08:17

Consider that last time AMD tried to create an specific crypto-card to leverage the crest of the wave of that craziness, it arrived too late (those things need a time to be designed, manufactured, shipped...), the bubble had already exploded and AMD was almost bankrupt due that movement as far as I remember. So volatile are those "gold rush" that people has. Mass media are very responsible of those behaviors; they start to broadcast news about the records that some crypto achieves in value and how some people is amassing money thanks to it and regular folks think that's something easy that anybody can do without having any idea at all.

Hopefully Nvidia couls suffer a similar face-slap this time. Or it could be worse if that happens then, whit they raising still more the prices to recover from the hit on their pouch. :evil:
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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#385 Post by Reignman » 28 Feb 2021 08:05

I could have had a 3060 yesterday, but I didn't want to pay $500 for it. I had that YT bot channel playing in the background and every time the alarm goes off with a new drop, I just like to see if I can ever get to the checkout before the item is sold out, and yesterday I finally made it. I got all the way to the "confirm order" screen before cancelling. I refreshed the page and could still add it to my cart. That tells me the bots/scalpers probably aren't interested in the 3060 haha. There were also 800 other people watching the channel at the time, so maybe nobody wants it xD. 10 minutes after that however, a 3070 dropped, and someone in chat managed to get one, so I guess it's possible. 3070's aren't ideal for mining either.

I figure my best chance is still the Newegg shuffle. So far they've only had the 1 on launch day though. I watched a few tutorials on how to make a scalper bot (just in case it comes to that xD), and a couple guys mentioned how Newegg was good at catching bots. Apparently if you're too fast with the clicking, it triggers a "are you human" captcha on Neweggs site, so good on them. Best Buy and Amazon are still pretty easy to scrape however.

Newegg:
We are employing bot protection against scalpers, resellers and others who use software to get an unfair advantage to purchase. Therefore any usage of auto refresher / loaders / crawlers may result in a permanent IP ban from Newegg. If our systems do not detect any violations from your IP address within the next 24 hours, it may be unblocked.

We do deploy Captcha when we detect bot behavior. If you’re a human, you shouldn’t see it unless you’re acting like a bot.

If you spot any 3rd party listings using a Newegg screenshot, please send us a screenshot and posting URL so we can pursue a takedown request via email or PM or DM.
There are a lot of 3rd party sellers selling CPU/GPU's at 50-100% markup on their site, and I personally think those should automatically be taken down even if they didn't originally buy it from Newegg, when Newegg itself is out of stock. Amazon should be doing that too, the problem is even worse on their site. But here's what I don't get about the whole scalper thing, the legality of it. How is it legal to buy up the entire stock of something (creating artificial demand), so you can turn around and sell it at a profit? When the covid pandemic started, people tried to do that with toilet paper, cleaning supplies, and masks, but they weren't allowed to. Sure, a GPU isn't necessarily a need, but that's still price gouging and it's supposed to be illegal.

Meanwhile, if you're still not convinced Reignman's Law is real, the price of bitcoin continues to drop. I mean overall it's up 30% over the past 30 days ($33500 to $43500), but it's down 34% the past 7 days ($58500 to $43500). Guess when I became interested in mining lol? Yes, exactly a week ago. The app I was going to use to mine ethereum was paying $14/d just 5 days ago with a 3080, but right now it's only $7.50 ($2.75 for a 3060), so that's a drop of almost 50% in just 5 days. Still profitable because a 3080 only uses about $0.75 of electricity per day, but that's Reignman's Law in full effect. Bitcoin was only at $19000 back in December when things started to go nuts. I mention bitcoin because even though I'd be mining ethereum, the app pays you in bitcoin. The price of ethereum has followed the same trajectory as bitcoin the past year though. It peaked at $2000 a week ago, up from $600 in December, but it's now down to $1350. Maybe it'll stabilize after March, because there's something about March that drives cryptocurrency down lol. Bitcoin dropped 43% ($9900 to $5600) last year from mid Feb to Mar too, before taking off like a rocket in mid Oct. But oh man, imagine if you bought some bitcoin at $5600 last year.
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#386 Post by Some newbie driver » 28 Feb 2021 11:45

Reignman wrote: 28 Feb 2021 08:05That tells me the bots/scalpers probably aren't interested in the 3060 haha.
That demonstratyes thar at near US $500 the base price is already scalped and those scalpers fear they could not get enough profit and fast sales if they try to rais still more the price on E-Bay.
Reignman wrote: 28 Feb 2021 08:05I figure my best chance is still the Newegg shuffle.
I've seen a lot of youtubers mad or mocking those shuffles because they dislike to not to be able to do the "first come first served instant gratification" of a purchase. But I don't see no one of them proposing a different REALISTIC solution so people could have a chance against bots. So... they can be as mad as they want, the shuffles will continue. I suppose also that the fact the only place one can find a 3060 at its supposed MSRP (that everybody knew that was a FAKE value) is on the Newegg shuffles. But that's a different history.
Reignman wrote: 28 Feb 2021 08:05Best Buy and Amazon are still pretty easy to scrape however.
Because they don't give a **** about if their sales came from an scalper bot or from a final user of the product. Best Buy or Amazon don't live of selling to DIY computer consumers; that's just a drop of water in the sea of their sales. So they don't care while the flow of sales doesn't stop. Newegg is in a more delicate position; not doing anything against scalpers could make potential customers go away to other places. And each GPU sale they lose is a potential sale lost on other PC parts and that's 90% or more of what they sell so yes, they need to care about scalpers; at least as a facade.
Reignman wrote: 28 Feb 2021 08:05But here's what I don't get about the whole scalper thing, the legality of it. How is it legal to buy up the entire stock of something (creating artificial demand), so you can turn around and sell it at a profit? When the COVID pandemic started, people tried to do that with toilet paper, cleaning supplies, and masks, but they weren't allowed to. Sure, a GPU isn't necessarily a need, but that's still price gouging and it's supposed to be illegal.
It's a free market for the good and for the bad. But so many people don't like to bear the bad. Now a lot of countries, but specially yours by several reasons, are facing the truth that other actors can play dirty too in that economic battleground. Now it's time of the China/Taiwan/Korea first and if the others don't have chips is their problem. No wonder your new president had signed executive orders to start investing hard on chip factories located in the US. This pandemic has shown us all how fragile an dependent are our modern economies on a piece of sand that, for so many years we had outsourced by convenience (you will see when the usual eco-warriors start to delay those factories because all the environmental concerns). Meanwhile in Europe, we blow to the wind... :roll:

BTW, keep thinking in get rich mining. Maybe you could fool Murphy that's reading your thoughts and the crypto-bubble will explode faster. It's the best chance you had to get soon a GPU for a decent price. :mrgreen:

Regards

PS: I just had knowledge of the last thing that it's plaguing the chips availability. It seems Taiwan if on a severe drought till the point that chip manufacturers are being forced to purchase shipments of WATER to keep running their factories... :roll: Nature wants to sent us to the medieval age for whatever means it could. Next one will be some kind of massive typhoon+floods like the ones that almost destroyed the global hard drive manufacturing several years ago. Dystopian novelist always thought about darker futures where we kill ones to others to ensure our food. But nobody thought we are moving to a moment when this is going to happen to acquire a freaking chip. :lol:
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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#387 Post by Reignman » 04 Mar 2021 12:41

Well I've lost 3 shuffles since the 3060 launched last Thursday. The last 2 I didn't really care about though because they weren't offering any of the cards I wanted. Maybe I would have bought the $400 EVGA 3060 yesterday had I won, so I'm kinda glad I lost lol. The market is so bad I should probably just buy what I can get. I've been watching 2 bot channels, and it only finds 4 or 5 GPU a day and they're mostly expensive 3070's or 3090's from Amazon. Best Buy only has stock once every 2 weeks. I've been watching a channel that's only scanning for 3080's, and it's only posted once in the past 3 days. I have email notifications through 4 different retailers for specific 3060's and 3080's (the only models I want) and I have yet to receive one. Things are looking as bleak and hopeless as they can lol. No APU in site either. Oddly enough, I've never seen Newegg include a 3080 in any shuffle. I'm beginning to wonder if Nvidia is even making those anymore. Nobody seems to have them. Are they shipping those directly to crypto farms now or what? Same with the 3060ti's. I really don't want a 3070, they're too expensive for a card that can't mine for squat.
Some newbie driver wrote: 28 Feb 2021 11:45BTW, keep thinking in get rich mining. Maybe you could fool Murphy that's reading your thoughts and the crypto-bubble will explode faster. It's the best chance you had to get soon a GPU for a decent price.
Haha yeah, that's one way to trick Murphy. I can't get a GPU because of mining, so if I say I'm going to mine, it gives Murphy a catch-22. So Murphy is just going to prevent me from getting a GPU. The crypto market has stabilized for now. If I somehow beat Murphy to a $800 GPU, then the market will crash.
Some newbie driver wrote: 28 Feb 2021 11:45PS: I just had knowledge of the last thing that it's plaguing the chips availability. It seems Taiwan if on a severe drought till the point that chip manufacturers are being forced to purchase shipments of WATER to keep running their factories...
Yeah I heard about them having to truck in water, but all the more reason we need more manufacturers around the world. Stuff like that shouldn't be centralized in one location or a natural disaster or terrorist attack could cripple the entire world. This is also why we need more competition too.

On another topic, do you think it would be possible to use a mining GPU (no outputs) if you had an APU and outputs on your MB? Linus had a video about something similar, gaming with a mining card with a hacked BIOS, but they didn't use an APU, so they had to jump through a bunch of other hoops to pass the mining card through the output on the MB. So I guess the real question is, can an APU utilize the graphics from a mining GPU? It's already using the outputs on your MB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY4s35uULg4
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#388 Post by Some newbie driver » 04 Mar 2021 13:47

Reignman wrote: 04 Mar 2021 12:41Oddly enough, I've never seen Newegg include a 3080 in any shuffle. I'm beginning to wonder if Nvidia is even making those anymore. Nobody seems to have them.
No, Nvidia ceased to produce 3080 almost at all because it's a useless product. Technically and performance wise, it become a bad purchase when AMD released their cards; way more competitive than the 3080 that it's only the good choice if you are interested in raytracing NOW and/or need CUDA for some specific software. And from the manufacturer perspective, seeing how people is willing to pay obscene prices by any GPU they can purchase; it's better to deviate all those chips productions to the 3090. Also, the very fact that NVidia itself had released a way lower tier card with more VRAM than the 3080 let's clear that the 3080 it's a dead product ion the NVidia lineup. Soon they will launch the 3080 Super, or 3080 Ti or whatever they wanna call it that will be the same but with 16 to 20 GB of VRAM and will cost about $80 to $100 extra bucks (even if that extra RAM chips cost really under $10).
Reignman wrote: 04 Mar 2021 12:41On another topic, do you think it would be possible to use a mining GPU (no outputs) if you had an APU and outputs on your MB? Linus had a video about something similar, gaming with a mining card with a hacked BIOS, but they didn't use an APU, so they had to jump through a bunch of other hoops to pass the mining card through the output on the MB. So I guess the real question is, can an APU utilize the graphics from a mining GPU? It's already using the outputs on your MB.
It's pretty possible that it could be done the way Linus does it. But the point is that new mining cards that are going to be shipped by NVidia have a base price DOUBLE the non-crypto MSRP than RTX3000 cards while they are using RTX2000 manufacturing process. Older mining cards have way lesser performance than those new ones so actually they don't worth the effort.

Now AMD says they are going to sell directly their reference cards at the same time AIBs launch theirs (somebody finally used their brain, doing a simultaneous release) and doing so in batches every week. Hopefully with that and if AMD ones aren't good enough for miners, that could help a bit on that crazy market. But it's a big "hopefully";: there's so many factors put toguether that are causing those prices...

At the end as we have talked already, it's free market and now the demand has skyrocketed. That only means that the prices will follow the same trend. Free market is what we wanted for years, free market is what we must endure now.
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#389 Post by Reignman » 04 Mar 2021 20:10

OMG, I had the exact 3080 I wanted land right in my lap but I wasn't quick enough lol. Ohhhhh man, I'm so bummed out now. It's the only 3080 still selling at MSRP ($699), the MSI Ventus. Ugh!! I clicked that link as fast as humanely possible but it was gone when I hit the checkout button. My heart was beating so fast lol. No Newegg shuffle today either.
Some newbie driver wrote: 04 Mar 2021 13:47No, Nvidia ceased to produce 3080 almost at all because it's a useless product.
Are you serious? They're not making them as much anymore? That would make sense based on what I'm seeing. I see these bots report a lot of 3070's and 90's, but hardly any 80's or 60ti's. But I wouldn't say the 3080's are useless. They're excellent for ethereum mining. They're just behind the 3090. The 3070's are no better than the 60ti's for mining, almost half the 3080's. Not only are the 3090's insanely overpriced, but I hear they're really only good for productivity type stuff, and mining. Overkill for gaming.
Some newbie driver wrote: 04 Mar 2021 13:47But the point is that new mining cards that are going to be shipped by NVidia have a base price DOUBLE the non-crypto MSRP than RTX3000 cards while they are using RTX2000 manufacturing process.
I haven't seen a price or performance on those yet, only heard rumors. Why would they charge double for them if the purpose is to keep miners away from "gamer" cards, especially if they won't quite have the performance? I figured they'd be much cheaper since they're chips that weren't quite good enough to be sold as actual GPU's. Why on earth would miners buy them? Other than nothing else is available? Gamer cards got that sweet resale value going for them.
Some newbie driver wrote: 04 Mar 2021 13:47Now AMD says they are going to sell directly their reference cards at the same time AIBs launch theirs
I'm still trying to avoid the AMD cards, but maybe I'll have to consider them again. Not that their stock situation is any better, which is odd because they're not as good for mining as the Nvidia cards. The 6900XT mines at the same rate as a 3060ti, and about half that of a 3090.

I'm half tempted to pull the trigger on a $100 GTX 750 I found lol. Then just use that until things maybe return to normal because right now I'm wasting so much time everyday refreshing pages and searching. I can't even find a 780ti under $200. 9800GT's are selling for $180, which is what I paid for mine 12 years ago lol. The 750 is sounding like a bargain. I need something. My current PC has begun crashing again and sometimes when it's just sitting here. It's due for a good cleaning again, which I was hoping I'd never have to do when I cleaned it last fall because I figured I'd have a new PC by now xD.
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#390 Post by Some newbie driver » 04 Mar 2021 21:24

Reignman wrote: 04 Mar 2021 20:10Are you serious? They're not making them as much anymore? That would make sense based on what I'm seeing.
They are manufacturing only the dies needed to fullfill the contracts with AIB they had signed, but 3080 was a dead product in NVidia lineup once AMD showed theirs. And once NVidia started to double the amount of VRAM tha they wanted to put on cards (as just done with 3060); they had cut the 3080 head in order to not raise as a zombie.
Reignman wrote: 04 Mar 2021 20:10But I wouldn't say the 3080's are useless. They're excellent for Ethereum mining. They're just behind the 3090.
So, from the point of view of NVidia, useless. Do you wanna mine Ethereum? Purchase a 3090 at double the price for just an extra 20% performance. That's the proposal of NVidia.
Reignman wrote: 04 Mar 2021 20:10Why would they charge double for them if the purpose is to keep miners away from "gamer" cards, especially if they won't quite have the performance?
Again, NVidia has done nothing useful to drive away miners from the "gaming cards". At most they have done something so regular people can't mine efficiently ethereum on an 3060. That's all. There's tons of other crypto-currencies being perfectly mined in a 3060. And why to charge more for the CMP? Why not? If miners are already purchasing from scalpers at double the MSRP for gaming cards? If they are already willing to pay that much, Nvidia gracefully allows them to pay that amount of money to a "trusted source". :lol: Resuming: GREED
Reignman wrote: 04 Mar 2021 20:10Not that their stock situation is any better, which is odd because they're not as good for mining as the Nvidia cards.
But AMD hadn't the manufacturing capacity that had NVIdia only for GPUs. Remember from the sales points and perspectives both companies arrived before the launch of those last gen GPUs.

And in case you don't find a decent GPU; remember that what you need is to flash your MB BIOS. That's the only you need to shutdown the old rig. Don't waste more time with it laying on the boxes. Flash that BIOS and use your old card: that's your priority. You could keep searching for a GPU all the time you want unless your current one ends deeply fried.

Regards
Last edited by Some newbie driver on 07 Mar 2021 13:59, edited 1 time in total.
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