Benson end-dump

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Re: Benson end-dump

#41 Post by Robinicus » 05 Nov 2020 17:30

I am running my 475/1650 8V92 and a 4.33 18 speed in that pic....was a fun challenge :)
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Re: Benson end-dump

#42 Post by xTHANATOPSISx » 08 Nov 2020 07:09

Yeah, the trailer is great, but I had to go through and make a little fix for the weights. I cut the empty trailer weight a lot and the maximum gross weight by even more. I also adjust the cargo base mass (down to 833kg/cubic meter for coal, up to 1684kg/cubic meter for gravel, left limestone alone). Based on a 20,000lb tractor the 2 axle trailers should be under 86,000lbs and the three axle trailers under 97,000lbs now. So far it looks like I got it sorted. Close enough to some real life numbers for me and this game. Now it handles like a tractor-trailer rather than like a cruise liner. I think all the cargoes now gross out before they cube out, but that's not totally unrealistic. If only the game could take the weight of the tractor into consideration when offering you loads, you could do a little better with bulk stuff.

Something I though of, but didn't try yet, was to create some more resolution with cargo weighs by increasing the trailer cubic capacity and reducing the base cargo weights by the same factor. Say by 4. Then you could get closer to the maximum weight you could haul in the trailer because it could "simulate" as it it were fractions of a cubic meter. The game wouldn't know any different, but it would come out right on the weights. Not sure how that factors into the pay, if it's based on cubes or kilos.

Anyway, super nice trailer otherwise. I got mine sorted. @overfloater if you're interested in seeing my numbers, just ask. I can send you a link or shoot an email or whatever with the little def tweaks I made and such if you have the slightest interest. Thanks for the coal bucket.
Last edited by xTHANATOPSISx on 08 Nov 2020 18:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Benson end-dump

#43 Post by 16Dollars » 08 Nov 2020 09:19

I love your trailer, thank you so much !

I have been a dump truck driver for 15 years and I like the weight. It feels appropriate, espacially uphill. You might adjust it a little bit , but please dont make
the loads as lightweight as SCS loads.

Best regards,

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Re: Benson end-dump

#44 Post by Daddyj60 » 11 Nov 2020 22:27

Agree, this is an awesome trailer. Thank you so much for this.

Definitely takes a different approach to hauling. Does not suffer foolishness lightly.

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Re: Benson end-dump

#45 Post by overfloater » 06 Dec 2020 12:19

@xTHANATOPSISx I have to know how you came up with these numbers. i'll edit the weigths if they're incorrect. My trailer weights are approximate, based on other trailers i'm familiar with.

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Re: Benson end-dump

#46 Post by xTHANATOPSISx » 07 Dec 2020 12:33

@overfloater As far as empty numbers, the best numbers I found were by looking through TruckPaper and other sales sites for quoted empty weights on trailers of similar design or combination weights for trucks and trailers from drivers. I knew based on intuition that those trailers were too heavy in the mod. The weight in the mod was 12500kgs which is over 27000lbs for an EMPTY tri-axle, high-side dump, putting most trucks in the game over 45k empty and not leaving much room for a load. Knowing what aluminum trailers generally weigh and how much aggregate carriers can usually scale (from anecdotes, picked up infromation in conversation over the years on the road) that made no sense. Lots of guys claim empty combo weights under 36k lbs with trucks between 18k and 22k lbs, leaving 14k to 18k lbs at most for empty trailer weights. With minimal information about specific trailers in many cases, I had to make some guesses no doubt.

I found at least one listing for a low side, 2 axle trailer similar in length to your smallest option in the mod, at under 10k lbs empty for the trailer. That aligned with my own expectations, if at the very low end. I found a few similar trailers to your middle option in the mid teens for weight, and that again fit with what I've seen in the past, and my own understanding of equipment and materials.

Another angle I worked to get to a reasonable empty weight was the assumption that at least a couple of these trailers should be able to cube out with coal and be legal or close to legal for weight. So I worked backwards, assuming a set weight for the tractor, and using the stated cubic capacity in the mod, to get a cargo weight. Then looked at what that would leave for a trailer weight and if those numbers made sense. I used 80k gross for two axles and 97k for tri to come up with something that works, is close enough to IRL for our needs but gave some room to work in the game. Since coal is one of the lightest loads you'd commonly see in that style of trailer I assumed it should stand to reason that they are built to get the most out of their capacity hauling that material. So I set the trailer weight limit such that, with the empty weights I set and the 20k lbs tractor weight placeholder the highest possible weight wouldn't exceed 80k/97k lbs gross. Heavier trucks would go over, lighter would be under, but since the game doesn't consider your actual tare weight when setting load weights, it's the best compromise I could make. A lot of mod trucks have poor weights as well, being either very light or very heavy for their possible configurations as well. It's a crap shoot at best and overly pedantic at worst to try to be any more accurate.

So armed with a few anecdotes that made sense to me, the concept of cubic capacity vs weight capacity, and the assumption that 20k lbs was close enough for our needs for a truck weight, I just did the math both ways and met in the middle. That's how I got my numbers. I absolutely made some estimations and gave and took a little to get it to feel good to me. Unfortunately I threw away the note paper I worked it all out on I'm just pretty sure. I don't see it here or I'd take some pics and "show my work" a little more.

It was hard to find anything too specific on net weights from drivers, but I did what I could to confirm my own understanding. I know half-rounds are lighter than square bottoms usually, but then things like liners and such change weights from stock quoted weights as well, and reality is that the manufacturer weights can be a good bit off once the trailer hits a scale as well. I can say that much with 100% confidence from my own experiences with our trucks and trailers over the years. Nothing weighs what the tag on the frame says it does.

The best option, and one I considered, would have been to contact one or more dealers or manufacturers asking for estimated weights for multiple configurations. I didn't do this because I just didn't want to wait for a response and didn't feel like occupying someone's time for my needs. No one likes wasting time on tire kickers. I wouldn't be surprised if most inquiries got no answer if I was honest about my reasons for asking. ... er.285795/ ... ht.515736/ ... re.245341/ ... s/2478849/

There are a few examples I found of drivers giving empty weights with at least a little bit of information on the equipment involved. I much more see that as creating a window that a typical combination should fit into, rather than being a hard set of numbers to live off when figuring.

My goal was to get the total loaded weight down into the realm of reality for the combinations possible with the trailers in the mod and I think I managed that. I limited the total weight to something reasonable for 5/6 axle combinations and cut the empty weight while I was there because it was, as far as I could tell, nearly double what it should be in some cases. That left more room for cargo weight under the gross limits. It works out for me now. The trailer pulls well in the game with the loaded weights I see. It makes sense for the combinations available as well. If I wanted, it wouldn't be hard to bump it up just a little to make the trailers heavier if I was using trucks with more axles, but it's close enough that I can RP either way. Before, the trucks were unstable in curves and the massive weights were unbelievable for the equipment. They would need many more axles to carry those weights and such combinations aren't legal or common all over the US, even in the more flexible western states featured in the game.

I originally thought about adjusting the cube capacity down one or two on the trailers to account for the taper of the pile since the cube capacity in the defs seems to be "perfect" but ultimately I didn't think it made enough difference to matter. Leave well enough alone. I did change the weight of the coal because I changed it to the more common (well closest to, to my understanding) type of coal used at least in the base game areas, in a more likely physical state for transportation and changed the weight for gravel for similar reasons though not due to geographic location specifically. Certainly that could be up to some debate, but from what I could find in 15 mins or so looking, those numbers seemed right to me. I used Bituminous Coal, Broken from aqua-calc for the weight. In fairness, the western US produces mostly sub-bituminous coal from what I can see, and mostly in Wyoming. Bituminous and anthracite coals are mostly produced in the Appalachian regions, Kentucky, Tennessee, up into the north east. Bituminous seemed like the best compromise. I didn't find a good mass for sub-bituminous coal quickly, but as far as I read, it's lower density so I would guess it was lighter per cube. Like I said, compromises, estimations, etc.

Here's and example of what I ended up with for one of my def file changes. I can upload the mod I made if you like, and post it here or DM you if you'd rather. I don't want to release a "fix" or "tweak" to your mod for public use without clearing that with you before hand. And if you'd rather end up integrating these changes or making similar ones of your own, then there's no point in me putting it in the public space anyway. It's all based on your mod. That said, if you'd rather leave your mod how you like it, and wouldn't mind me offering my adjustments to those interest, I can polish it up for proper release at any time and would gladly do so to help out anyone else that wants the lighten the load, assuming that's ok with you. I generally don't release this kind of stuff because it's built off someone else's work and I don't feel like asking permission so it stays private. It's also often kind of quick and dirty tweaks that aren't always fit for consumption.

Code: Select all

trailer_def : trailer_def.benson_of.dump.single_1.dump
	gross_trailer_weight_limit: 35000
	chassis_mass: 4570
	body_mass: 4050
	length: 11.7
	axles: 3
	volume: 47
	body_type: dump_of
	chain_type: single

	mass_ratio[]: 1
I really hope you don't see this as an indictment of your mod. I don't know your background or reference point for this subject. I grew up in trucks, drove trucks, worked on truck and generally enjoy trucks. I've been around them a large part of my life and so I have a pretty good intuition and understanding of the equipment and laws and so on. I don't expect everyone to have that, or have the same frame of reference. To me, the numbers simply didn't work out in my head, and the little information I could find seemed to confirm that. The trailer is super nice, just the weights didn't work for me. I can look up specs/weights and tweak defs but can't do 3D models or anything related to them. That's not in my wheelhouse, at least not yet. Blender is just beyond me so far. So I can't do everything you did to make this thing work in the game, but I'm thrilled to make minor changes as I'm able. Let me know if you want to take a look at the defs I changed. Like I said, glad to share however you prefer, just don't want to go sharing something if you don't want it out there. Thanks for the trailer and considering my information on it.

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Re: Benson end-dump

#47 Post by GHOSTRIDER-67 » 11 Dec 2020 17:29

Agree on extreme weights... It is absolutely an awesome trailer yes, but weights are insanely wrong (too much heavy for long distance hauling) bro, please make them more reasonable ;)
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Re: Benson end-dump

#48 Post by JackBurton » 12 Dec 2020 00:35

An absolutely beautiful trailer! I can't wait to pull it tonight. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Regarding the subject of heavy cargo weight, I might have the solution. @overfloater, did you calculate cargo weight as the density of the material times the interior trailer volume?

If so, you may have neglected to include the packing fraction. Even a medium like sand, whick we might think has very little empty space in it, actually has a substantial fraction of its total volume occupied only by air voids. Something like 40% of the volume is empty. Take a look at the table on the Wikipedia page for random packing:

You might consider the entries in the table under loose or poured random packing. Of course the tabulated values are for spheres, but shape will not make a huge difference. Coal, gravel, and sand are close to spherical -- as opposed to a long, thin cargo like lumber, pipes, or logs.

So, if you multiply your weights by 0.6, you might account for the empty space inherent in granular media. Although, maybe you already did this in your original numbers. If so, I apologize for the long explanation of something you already know.

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Re: Benson end-dump

#49 Post by The Dude » 12 Dec 2020 14:36

I love weight of the trailer, which in my honest opinion is lacking in the default trailers no matter what your hauling, you just don't feel the weight. This with a couple more modded dump trailers I have really are a challenge when on a grade as they should be. With all of the scientific theories and math aside I absolutely love this mod for what it's worth, keep up the good work and thank you for sharing and all of the loads I've seen so far are short runs which I like as well .

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Re: Benson end-dump

#50 Post by overfloater » 12 Dec 2020 17:14

JackBurton wrote:
12 Dec 2020 00:35
maybe you already did this in your original numbers.
Of course not.
I didn't know how to calculate that empty space, or just how significant it was. "packing density" are the magic words i needed. :lol:

So I've multiplied load weights by 0.6. I'm in peace with the resulting numbers. Everything adds up, and i'm not contradicting any real-world data. Not to be confused with legal documents; the trailers are still gonna be overweight, there's no getting around that. Just like IRL, from time to time i do hear about a truck getting impounded for running overweight, and it's always a dump truck.

The empty trailer weights are now 6.6 - 9.4 tons. I made that change very reluctantly, as i'm still having difficulties accepting that the big trailer is anything less than 10 tons. :?

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