On the verge of an important decision

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EricF
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Re: On the verge of an important decision

#1 Post by EricF » 28 Nov 2019 12:47

There is still some pop-up with mountains. Fixing that will take time; DX11 is a good start but more needs to be overhauled in the game engine; give it time.

As to others, it's much improved with DX11, especially if your PC can truly handle running the game at 400% scaling and max graphics settings. But doing so definitely requires a good graphics card -- GTX1080, either overclocked or a Ti, or an RTX2080 -- especially if you use a UHD (1440p) or 4K monitor.

Mirror performance is highly dependent on your PC's and GPU's performance. Make sure there are no bottlenecks in how the game data is processed -- plenty of reasonably fast RAM -- 8-16GB and a reasonably modern CPU with fast memory controller performance. CPU speed isn't everything. How fast it can get data in and out of memory matters, too.

The game is actually very forgiving for hardware requirements, but the performance scales up with hardware capability. Just because you can max everything out doesn't mean it will look good unless your hardware is truly up to the task. My impression is that the game tends to gracefully degrade when you over-tax your system. You can dial up the settings, but the actual results will vary based on your PC's capability. I went from an OC'd GTX1080 to an OC'd RTX2080 Super, running 400% scaling, all graphics settings maxed-out, using a 3440x1440 UHD ultrawide monitor. The game was beautiful on the GTX1080. Same settings, same monitor with the RTX2080 is noticeably even better. The base PC has 16GB or RAM and a Skylake i7 OC'd to 4.9GHz. It's a pretty beefy rig, and the GPU upgrade still made a difference. The better the hardware you throw at it, the better the game will perform. Mirrors in particular are huge factor -- each mirror is another instance of the game world being rendered and kept in sync with the main view. As you increase mirror resolution and distance, you're putting a bigger and bigger load on the whole game process, and performance for everything may begin to suffer if your hardware can't keep up.

Some issues you see with road markings and the like may be due to older, low-res textures in some of the older regions of the game. The newer DLCs use higher-quality textures which naturally have fewer aliasing artifacts to begin with. SCS is re-working older areas, beginning with Germany, to improve this.

I drove through the new Utah DLC in ATS on the 1.36 update -- it's looking downright photorealistic. When 1.36/Road to the Black Sea comes out for ETS2, it should really showcase what improvements have come with DX11 and other ongoing work.

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BK Vissers
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Re: On the verge of an important decision

#2 Post by BK Vissers » 28 Nov 2019 13:09

EricF has made some very good observations. It’s also true that hardware will not solve all the issues you are finding so glaring. Do keep in mind that many others are not as affected, either due to different systems or because what bothers you doesn’t bother them, or doesn’t as much.

I would add that SCS is continually trying to improve the game engine. While the focus may shift depending on a number of factors, we know from experience that the game does not look at all how it did from a graphics standpoint four years ago. I’m not saying everything is different or better, but overall the game looks a heck of a lot better than it used to. One just has to drive in Luxembourg and then in the Baltics. Visually there is an enormous difference. I doubt the work on visual improvement will stop. 1.36 is DX11’s first non-experimental implementation.

Max commented on the continuing graphics engine development in a post about Mac compatibility, but part of that post hints at PC graphics as well. See here (emphasis mine):
Max wrote:
28 Nov 2019 07:00
metal (or rather vulkan) is similar api class as DX12. so they will be developed at least partially together. and its still lot of work. can't tell any time but one or few years might be guess in the right ballpark. we first need to "sell" our DX11 capabilities for visual improvement before we can make another step.

Having said that, if you expect SCS to make some guarantee that a game that is providing an enjoyable experience to many thousands of people will be changed to meet your particular tastes you may find yourself waiting a very long time for an answer.

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BK Vissers
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Re: On the verge of an important decision

#3 Post by BK Vissers » 28 Nov 2019 13:24

Well, that would require a change to the game, right? It won’t do it itself, someone will have to spend time working on the issue.

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cip
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Re: On the verge of an important decision

#4 Post by cip » 28 Nov 2019 13:29

Yannis, I think you should really give a chance to Damian's graphics and weather mods. you are an IT guy, software and hardware is never a problem for you! besides you play a Vanilla profile not charged with mods that could hold down your PC. I have impressive results with an average PC and believe me nobody else play with the traffic models I have (because many are home made traffic trailers). ATS runs amazingly, Utah in terms of AA run great, cables are much better even that they were with MSAA! Even Washington and Oregon's power lines are great, only the old ones we can see there are old :lol:
what bothers me is the traffic actually, there are some bugs, some I reported and were not treated, some were marked "no bug" as this form Baltics. so if I am in doubts about buying the upcoming Black Sea DLC I am for traffic, if trucks turn in the same way you can place me in the waiting list also! :lol:
@EricF you don't really need the most expensive graphic card to play scs games. you need a good CPU first because the game will only use one core. with my GTX 1060 the graphic load is generally lest than 50% only in some cities it goes a bit more, but in Dx11 never reaches the maximum workload as it happened on Dx9.
Enjoy driving with my Real Traffic Density for ETS2 and ATS
Enjoy listening my ATS Real Ai Traffic Sounds 1.36-1.37
currently on strike :D beta testings and bug reports are temporarily suspended from my activity until further decisions :lol:

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BK Vissers
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Re: On the verge of an important decision

#5 Post by BK Vissers » 28 Nov 2019 13:42

If you need to be completely sure then I think you have your answer already. There is no way anyone can guarantee any or all of these issues will be fixed. And I don’t see how anyone could.

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Re: On the verge of an important decision

#6 Post by EricF » 28 Nov 2019 13:48

In terms of single-thread performance (which is the way ETS2 runs), the Ryzen 2600 is good, but lags behind Intel i5 and i7 which tended to set the benchmark. It's difficult to make good comparisons, though, because AMD vs Intel is sometimes an apples-to-oranges comparison; they both have their own way of doing things. And overall, most code compilers are better at optimizing for Intel chips, less so for AMD. In the end,the 2600 is handicapped by optimization issues in the game code, (Not just ETS2 -- it's everywhere!!) and you'll see things fall apart faster. This is improving, but in general we aren't there yet. Game devs everywhere are adding AMD optimizations, but it will still take time.

Short answer -- A Ryzen 2600 may be lagging in single-thread handling for the game. I know, it shouldn't but that's an unfortunate consequence of how code is compiled; it's not even SCS' fault. The compilers are catching up... but not fast enough. Getting the most out of single-thread performance on a CPU is a brute-force exercise anyway. My quad-core i7 is mostly idling in ETS2, except for one core driving the heck out of one thread at a time, shoving things in and out of RAM as fast as it can. Intel chips are very good at this. AMD is getting better at it -- but where they have the upper hand is in multi-core, multi-thread tasks. Like video encoding.

I really, really want to build my next system around an AMD CPU. But most games I run are so heavily single-threaded that the more expensive Intel chips still hold the upper hand in performance.

De-sync of AI headlights in mirrors vs the main game view tends to indicate something is hitting a bottleneck. Single-thread performance of the hardware has an impact here, but there's another thing that can be affecting it. Resource usage in the game has been dissected in detail in the thread for optimizing for high-end systems. Some adjustment of the -mm_max_resource_size and -mm_pool_size values might be of use when you're maxing-out everything. Normally, I wouldn't think this issue would really hit a vanilla implementation of the game. But I'm a firm believer that if AMD CPUs are getting (unfairly) hit with sub-par code optimization, then a little tweaking might be just what it takes to put things right. It's a very good CPU, but neither the game code nor the compilers used to turn the devs' code into machine instructions was originally designed to take advantage of the Ryzen CPU vs Intel. And when you're running the game at max settings, you're pushing the limits of how the code runs on the hardware. It's not so much a strain on the hardware, it's a matter of making sure the code doesn't stumble.

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Re: On the verge of an important decision

#7 Post by SiSL » 28 Nov 2019 14:20

Your system looks fine. With proper configuration almost none of what you described should not be even remotely visible to you.

Can you send gamelog file?

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EricF
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Re: On the verge of an important decision

#8 Post by EricF » 28 Nov 2019 14:28

It's not about FPS, really. It's about the whole pipeline. Agreed, there's no point in running beyond 60FPS Vsync in ETS2. In fact, Vsync helps. Your system is no longer trying to push everything to a max framerate; instead it only has to meet an easier target and that leaves "headroom" for other demands.

But, performance in a single-threaded application is especially susceptible to bottlenecks. One slow-moving car that pulls out into traffic on a single-lane road makes everything slow down. That's the challenge to overcome. If you only have one lane to work with, how do you keep everything moving? By making sure nothing inhibits the flow of traffic (data).

It starts with code optimization. The devs are already doing that as part of the move to modern graphics standards like DX11. But what the devs write is fed into a compiler -- an automated process that takes human-readable programming code and turns it into machine instructions. Part of the voodoo that a compiler does is optimize the code for the CPU. Because, unfortunately, Intel held the lead for so long, compilers specifically were written to output code that's especially fast on Intel CPUs. Ryzen came along with a lot of benefits, but the code compilers are still catching up to really take advantage and output Ryzen-friendly machine instructions. Result -- Intel hardware gets an unfair advantage, especially on single-threaded applications.

How many mirrors do you have up, running at max mirror distance, max mirror resolution, and 400% scaling? Left main, left small, right main, right small, windshield or right door overhead, plus any UI overlay left/right mirrors? That's up to seven mirrors -- seven instances of the game world view in addition to the main view to process and render. It's a huge load of processing to handle, one thread at a time, before it even gets sent to the GPU. That's why you'll always hear the advice "turn down mirror distance and resolution, it hurts your performance." You're trying to get 60FPS out of up to eight views/instances of the game world all at the same time, all in sync. FPS still matters, and you're doing it eight times over! That's eight chances for thread processing to stumble, causing slowdowns, de-syncs, slow texture loads... the list goes on.

Lots of us have acceptable, even excellent results on various hardware builds. But it's never completely plug-and-play. The trick is keeping that single-lane road clear of surprises and bottlenecks.

Important side note -- Windows is pretty good these days at keeping things from interfering with a foreground application like a game, but most antivirus doesn't respect that. I've run into many cases where the AV program was inspecting every single file a game opened -- every texture, every object, every sound -- and checking and verifying every process the game ran. Make sure your AV is set to ignore the whole location where ETS2 is stored, and ignores the game executable when it runs. Nothing's worse for throwing off a game's resources than nosy AV!

Many of your concerns can be mitigated by keeping the deck clear so that ETS2 has the best opportunity to run well. You have to understand the limitations of the game, the nature of single-threaded code, and how it all behaves in the hardware and software environment. Unfortunately, there's more to it than just launching the game and dialing everything up to eleven. I tend to think that it's just a matter of finding and working around a performance bottleneck somewhere. We've all been there; just takes some time to find a solution.

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cip
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Re: On the verge of an important decision

#9 Post by cip » 28 Nov 2019 14:33

SiSL is right, you should be fine, @yiannis actually I thought you were, at some point you said it's fine :lol: I don't have almost any of those issues, only some fences at bridges crossing motorways, but all road marks are fine, most of the cables are fine, the new cables are actually great no AA on them :D my only complain is about the GPS roads from the route advisor. that AA is pretty bad and to fix it I use a mod with a very small route advisor, still AA visible but I ignore it and use more the GPS of trucks when available
Enjoy driving with my Real Traffic Density for ETS2 and ATS
Enjoy listening my ATS Real Ai Traffic Sounds 1.36-1.37
currently on strike :D beta testings and bug reports are temporarily suspended from my activity until further decisions :lol:

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bumbumek
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Re: On the verge of an important decision

#10 Post by bumbumek » 28 Nov 2019 14:51

I'm confused right now...Dear @cip, I have good videocard - GTX 1060 with 6 GB, and weaker CPU - i5-3570k (but not overclocked). For now, on 1.35 patch (but running on Dx9) i got 45-60 fps in ETS2 (graphics maxed out + NVIDIA Inspector for better AA). So what's gonna happen after switching to Dx11 on 1.36 patch? You said, that the game will only use one core - will I lose performance if I have such weak CPU? :?

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