Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

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Marcello Julio
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Re: Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

#51 Post by Marcello Julio » 23 Sep 2021 11:32

Wolfseye wrote: 23 Sep 2021 11:19 https://frkn64modding.com/announcement- ... n471Z0c5Wg

I thought this is only about Steam Workshop and SCS Forum ? I know that this guy has his mods posted on SW, probably also here in the Forum as well. But, also on his website. But how it reads, he is not just giving up those mods on those 2 sources, but the download at all.
So, I guess SCS is now forcing other sites as well.
No. He himself said that he decided to stop with the Scania e Volvo mod because he is currently focusing on another mod. Since January 2021, the two mods were not being updated.
Last edited by Marcello Julio on 23 Sep 2021 11:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Underscore_101_
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Re: Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

#52 Post by Underscore_101_ » 23 Sep 2021 11:32

Since someone mentioned the police a few post before me it got me thinking if SCS isn't also breaching a copyright.

There's a copyright on the striping on Dutch police cars that's held by the state, the Dutch SCS police cars use exactly the same striping and colours match very close if not fully with the real ones.
Not saying SCS is doing anything wrong, but it made me wonder if SCS have an agreement for use of the same design, because if not they are in a way doing the same thing, not between games, but between real life and a game.
Some newbie driver
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Re: Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

#53 Post by Some newbie driver » 23 Sep 2021 11:42

Copyright laws had exceptions for fair use. Depict reality on a media product IS fair use. No film or TV series that includes images of Dutch police cards (hundreds, for sure) are going to pay copyright for it neither. The copyright in those cases protects the owner from other people that would want to stamp that same design in other places (let's say, to make toys).

If the focus of the game would be to drive Dutch police cars, then do YES SCS should had obtained the appropriate license from the copyright holder.
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Re: Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

#54 Post by Underscore_101_ » 23 Sep 2021 11:54

I'm not a lawyer and don't really care, it just came to mind, but though it's not a police game, using real life designs adds to the experience of the game in a positive way and indirectly may have more users play the game and thus make more money from it :-).
And in my simple mind they could then also just use real life companies on trucks and trailers as paint jobs, after all the police is treated as a company in NL.

Or in other words, they are using someone else's design and indirectly create added value to the game.
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Re: Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

#55 Post by Some newbie driver » 23 Sep 2021 13:24

Underscore_101_ wrote: 23 Sep 2021 11:54using real life designs adds to the experience of the game in a positive way and indirectly may have more users play the game and thus make more money from it :-)
Of course it could be said so; but that doesn't change the fact: the game isn't only depicting what it's real and exist. It's scenery.
And in my simple mind they could then also just use real life companies on trucks and trailers as paint jobs, after all the police is treated as a company in NL.
But there's a BIG difference here. Police services are just a few, always the same and well defined (and, very important, a public service, no matter they are treated as a company). Private companies are gazillions. One can't depict them all in the game, one can't even be sure their appearance in the game will match reality (Is DHL currently shipping in that town in the middle of Poland?). Even if SCS would do due diligence and depict that reality at release time, those things change in the future. So, SCS adds the police cars and it's free to do so but doesn't add any transport private company because the only way to do it freely would end in excessive complication and costs to ensure they don't broke in any moment the fair use case.

That's why in a movie you will see no brands of anything, because they could never be sure they would be able to follow a fair use case. So, the only real brands that clearly appear are those that agreed to do so. And as usually the agreement is viewed as an advertising, we have to suffer those ridiculous camera moves that focus on the badge in the front of the car instead of the main point of the scene. That's how lawyers are ruined almost all the chasing scenes in cinema last decades. :roll:

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Re: Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

#56 Post by bobgrey1997 » 23 Sep 2021 16:26

Actually, almost all movies have real brands. The most noticeable are vehicle manufacturers (such as in a scene where a character is ariving in a vehicle), but also many stores are represented, both in the foreground (the scene takes place at or in the store) or in the background (you can see stores down the road or across the street).
Also, if using a copyrighted design for a public service is fair use because you are using it to portray reality in media, then the same can be said for all private companies. You say it is different because the police are always present in the given location they are shown in-game, but a private company might not be. The opposite is true. A given police car is very unlikely to be waiting at the traffic light on exit 15, for example, in reality at the exact moment you encounter it there in-game. However, the Shell fuel station will most definitely still be there in reality when you encounter it in-game.
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Re: Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

#57 Post by xXCARL1992Xx » 23 Sep 2021 16:29

if you see branded stuff focused in a film (examples you mentioned) then this is product placement and has nothing to do with copyright, the companies deliberately payed to have their products shown, James Bond is one of such things, they even reshoot scenes for the latest film because the release delayed over a year and the shown products were out of "trend" again (what a nonsense reason to reshoot scenes :roll:)
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Re: Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

#58 Post by plykkegaard » 23 Sep 2021 16:49

bobgrey1997 wrote: 23 Sep 2021 16:26 Actually, almost all movies have real brands.
It's a different deal called product placement / advertisement and this is big money the brands are paying up front

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Re: Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

#59 Post by frkn64 » 23 Sep 2021 16:56

Wolfseye wrote: 23 Sep 2021 11:19 https://frkn64modding.com/announcement- ... n471Z0c5Wg

I thought this is only about Steam Workshop and SCS Forum ? I know that this guy has his mods posted on SW, probably also here in the Forum as well. But, also on his website. But how it reads, he is not just giving up those mods on those 2 sources, but the download at all.
So, I guess SCS is now forcing other sites as well.
Mohegan13 wrote: 23 Sep 2021 11:22
@Wolfseye If you read what they said in the post, they had suspended them already. That would suggest they just don't want to carry on with them to me.

I can say with certainty though, it's only here on the forum and workshop where they aren't allowed. I'll Poke frnk though, just in case he misunderstood.
@Wolfseye, @Mohegan13 I would like to clarify everything, I did not misunderstand the situation, but I think I caused a misunderstanding.

I know this ban only applies to the Steam Workshop and SCS forums, but as you know, mods of this nature violate SCS' licensing terms with truck manufacturers. If I modeled the trucks in my mods myself, there would be no problem, but you know I convert them directly from ETS 2. In this case, the truck manufacturers and even SCS have the right to accuse my website of copyright infringement.
I'm just a developer and I never want to have a problem with companies, especially with SCS. This is the whole reason why I decided to remove these mods from everywhere.

I would also like to point out here that a few months ago, I asked someone from SCS if it would be a okay if I make a mod converting all existing trucks in ETS 2 to ATS.
And I got this response: "Although SCS hasn't flatly said no and some similar mods already exist, that could always change as you are essentially giving game content to people who might not own that game. Currently there are no issues there, but I would tread carefully." And then I gave up making such a mod. I can say that this is the second reason why I suspended both my Scania and Volvo truck mods. I wanted to wait a bit and see if SCS would take action for these mods and now they do.
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Re: Removal of truck mods from either ETS2 or ATS from the opposite game ?

#60 Post by Some newbie driver » 23 Sep 2021 17:33

bobgrey1997 wrote: 23 Sep 2021 16:26You say it is different because the police are always present in the given location they are shown in-game, but a private company might not be. The opposite is true. A given police car is very unlikely to be waiting at the traffic light on exit 15, for example, in reality at the exact moment you encounter it there in-game. However, the Shell fuel station will most definitely still be there in reality when you encounter it in-game.
I probably didn't expressed correctly enough that part. Let me try again.

As what I was explaining was fair use in depiction of reality, the could be there I meant was "it's realistic that could appear there" (not that always will be at specific place). It's realistic that Dutch police cars appear anywhere in the Netherlands? Sure there is. Is realistic that a non-Dutch police car to be depicted in the Netherlands? Discarding extremely edge-cases; sure that not. So, if I'm depicting Dutch roads and streets, is Dutch police cars what it's realistic to put there and a claim about "it's copyrighted and you need my permission" will not sustain; specially because they are also public services. I'm depicting Netherlands roads, Netherlands have those police cards and are in the roads and I'm not selling Netherlands police cars as the object of my business (that's why I said it's important we didn't drive those cars in the game).

But what happens with real-companies trucks? Is depicting SCS reality if they add (just an hypothetical example) DHL and UPS trucks in the game. No, it doesn't. Because that will be far away from that depiction, IRL there will be thousands of different companies' trucks in those roads. SCS would not be doing a fair depiction unless the whole damn mix will (something that even the best traffic mods out there can't comply). SCS would be just taking profit of a few recognizable brands. Those could say "take others or pay us". Or they could rebate the fair use reality depiction with something like "we didn't operate in that country IRL". And that last one could change with time, so even if SCS could check it at some point, it will be wrong later (like your Shell gas station example, next month could change its operator).

Resuming: there exist infinite scenarios where the use of private brands could be done wrong; as it's infinite the efforts needed to do it right. It's useless to follow that path and leaves you only two options:
A- License the usage of the private brand/product/Copyrighted material and put it into the product (all the IRL brands you see in movies)
B- Don't put none of them as SCS tries (not always successfully, remember they had to change all the too-cat-similar machinery in the game). That's why so many USA movies share the same airline (plagued with accidents :lol:) or the exactly same newspaper. They were created on purpose to be used without have to worry about any real company claims.

Regards
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