From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

Emmerich
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From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

#1 Post by Emmerich » 27 Oct 2021 06:57

Yes ATS and ETS2 are still the games I love most its just...:-(

at V139 update you changed the sound system .... well I needed long to understand the new sounds but its at least not bader than before now...

at 1.40 update you changed the lighting system... well its nice but sill the effects to me as user are bad...the dashboard lights are still not ok, the lampt of headlights and traffic lights and similar does NOT look realistic and the surrounding lights still make it harder than it was before to park my trailers at night

at 1.42 update you changed the FFB... I NEVER drove a trruck, a tracker, a bus, a van or a car (and I drove a lot of that vehicles the last 50 years) that has positive scrub radius...so this update too made the gaming worse

dear SCS, please stop to update the game technically but hurt the game play. Let your talented technicians more talk to people who really knows the feeling of a truck. Please please.

As mentioned, I still love the game but going that way further you slowly make it harder and harder to enjoy.

Best regards yours still addicted
Emmerich
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OttoReverse
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Re: From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

#2 Post by OttoReverse » 27 Oct 2021 15:40

I have to agree about the lighting system. It made the scenery wonderful. Sunsets, sunrises etc. But most of the time the dash is too dark (talking about the dashboard not the gauges) and the concrete roads are too bright. I avoid driving at night because low beam headlights are too dark and when you are turning you can't see where you are turning into. Some people don't like hearing that and make excuses for it or blame me for not liking it. But at the end of the day it has made the experience in the truck worse for me and no matter what anyone says, I find it very unrealistic. Sunsets/sunrises sure are pretty though.
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Milan1NL
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Re: From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

#3 Post by Milan1NL » 27 Oct 2021 15:44

Well your fix: Stay at version 1:39. At that moment you did't had issues.
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OttoReverse
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Re: From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

#4 Post by OttoReverse » 27 Oct 2021 16:48

That's not a "fix", that's an excuse.
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plykkegaard
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Re: From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

#5 Post by plykkegaard » 27 Oct 2021 16:48

My fix: Spend my precious spare time doing something else

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OttoReverse
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Re: From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

#6 Post by OttoReverse » 27 Oct 2021 17:15

Heaven forbid someone post some constructive criticism. :roll:
Some newbie driver
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Re: From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

#7 Post by Some newbie driver » 29 Oct 2021 21:49

Yeah, maybe it wasn't the best answer; but you will pardon me, yours wasn't constructive criticism either. It was just plain pointless criticism. To be constructive it has to be based in facts and knowledge; yours lack the second so, even with good intentions, was pointless.

Before lighting changes, all the lighting system in the game was plain and simple wrong (they explained why with a lot of detail in their blog). There was an old heritage when things were done a lot more basically in video games, specially in low budget ones like SCS was a very small company back in time. They keep that old system for long time but it had no place anymore in 2021 and they had to change it.

Now, the facts:
- Almost all of our computers (and televisions too) work in SDR mode (is what we are used for because it's what we had seen everywhere ever)
- To depict something truly realistic we will need HDR (even not perfect, waaaaay way more close to reality).
- Game still works in SDR (even if the internal render now works in HDR, the output is still SDR)
- Even if the game would give an HDR output, it would be pointless for anybody not having proper cabling and proper HDR monitors (a vast minority of people, worldwide, HDR monitors that aren't a scam are still very rare and very expensive)

So, with all of this combined, ALWAYS that you will have in the screen some places very dark combined with some places very bright; one of both is going to be seen wrongly (too dark or too bright, losing details in there). This is a fact not for SCS, but for every single media content in computers. Any game, any video, any picture... all suffers the same problem if they pretend to show a realistic scene. Now you notice it because you have lived the change and remember how it was and see how it's now. In other games you didn't notice it because the developers make no effort on improve it, they just release a new game years later and direct objective comparisons aren't possible.

So, there's three options: either SCS returns back to an old outdated way of doing things, you move back to 1.39 if you don't like current state of things or you bear the changes and keep playing newer versions. And I suppose you would understand why the first one isn't really an option anymore.

That means everything is good and perfect into the game? No, it doesn't. The 1.40 was just ONE part of lighting changes. There's almost another big change related to lights that was not in the scope for that update and that's the root cause of why tunnels aren't as darker as they should or why we still see lights going through objects. Not to counting lots of other things they could improve in the visuals (and I'm not even talking to take the ray tracing step). They still have a lot of work to be done to bring the game to the 2021 standards of technology. It would be awesome that everything would already been done, but what we can't criticize is that they are working on it and expect to go back.

About FMOD changes, mentioned in the main post, lot of people would be more capable of explain the details. I would only say: take a pre-FMOD version, turn on blinkers and "stress" the GPU (shake the image so the renderer have to work harder). Unless you have beast of a PC, bet you will hear how some ticks of the blinkers weren't played. Repeat the same test with FMOD versions of the game and notice how that doesn't happen anymore. We mostly hear "the same" and notice the complexity of modding (those who done it); but under the hood that was a HUGE change for better so the game would work way smother and stable.

And about FFB, I don't use it so I can opine of the result. But the way I see it, it's something too personal, starting by the point most of us didn't even know how it should behave a truck IRL (at most, we know about cars). So it's a tedious work for everybody to find whatever setup it suits him. People could share their setup values and controllers models; but at the end it will be everyone's taste what will dictate if that's "right" or "wrong".

If we would want to discuss details of what has been changed of how has been done the change; then there's lots of threads we we could share out thoughts and do a very constructive talk. But to simplify things to the point to ask to devs not to improve the game because it's a hassle to adapt. Then yes, the answer to such an out-of-place simplification is: "remain in the old version".

Regards
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COGA72
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Re: From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

#8 Post by COGA72 » 30 Oct 2021 02:45

I did not want to comment since my opinion is very personal and obviously, although I have some reason, the developers will not take this and others into account, but I have some points to share with you.

Undoubtedly, the sound improvement in 1.39 gives more realism to the simulator, now the sound is surround and not "mono" type, so it can have an almost 3D sound compared to a flat sound.
It is difficult to adapt, especially if you are dedicated to developing sounds (as is my case), but the improvement is a good advance.

the 1.40 and the new lighting system was also a good step, although I personally think that the third party lighting and ambient mods are much better than what SCS gave us, although the work they did is respectable and they laid the groundwork for the good ones skybox available.

The only thing where I can give you reason is with the 1.42 FFB update. I have driven different types of vehicles (compacts, vans, American and European trucks) and definitely something is skipping with this step.
The FFB improvement is going in the right direction, but as you mention it, I think the SCS developers need to test a real vehicle (trucks in this case) more to replicate the effects of steering / suspension in the vehicle as much as possible. new FFB system.

I have tested the game since beta 1.42 was released and have noticed improvements, but without a doubt, the one that is most needed is the steering wheel centering and friction.
In a large vehicle, the steering is clumsier than a compact, however, the new FFB behaves like a Honda Civic or VW Golf at high speeds. It is so docile at high speeds that even with one finger I can turn the steering wheel more than 5 degrees, something that would never happen even in a Formula 1, the centrifugal force makes the steering less docile even with all the downforce to stick your car to the ground.

My personal opinion of things that should improve in the FFB system are:
- Motor resonance: even with a low degree of resonance, the vibrations transmitted to the wheel are somewhat strong
- feeling of collisions / terrain: this part is a halfway point, since in the end, no matter how much SCS adjusts the transmission values ​​of these events, if the surface of the map where you drive has some irregularity or does not have a collision, the desired effect will not be transmitted. What I have noticed is that on the base map, some events like car collisions are hardly felt while hitting objects like cones, roadside posts (the ones that are small that carry reflective) feel like it has hit a power line pole. both events seemed a bit strange to me having the same level of sensation when I did both tests.
-focused at high speeds: and this is the Achilles heel that many of the players are feeling with the 1.42. The centering almost does not exist, it seems that I am driving a small car or that there is no FFB. Logically, any car or truck the faster the more, the direction will be harder, since the speed causes that when turning the wheels they lose adherence to the surface.
We cannot ask for much since it is a game, less if we use somewhat basic wheels compared to a fanatec or a professional servo system that is closer to a real steering system.
Fortunately, I have had the opportunity to drive a good range of vehicles and trucks in real life and believe me, those who have not driven at least one GoKart, do not know how difficult it can be to turn the faster you travel. Without a doubt, SCS only has to adjust this point and that would make the players happier.
I know that the development is somewhat complex, it is not a question of putting 2 or 3 numbers and launching it to the public, but I feel that they did that with the FFB in 1.42, since the feeling of realism is lost when going more than 30 km / h, or, let's drive at 20 km / h until we have centering and friction at high speeds hahaha.
For now, if I were someone who worked directly between the community and SCS, I would consider going back to the old FFB system where improvements are made again FFB, however, my words will fall on deaf ears like so many others.
Let's hope that at some point these small details can be solved, which are "small" but important.
I REPEAT: it is my personal opinion and I know that nothing that is already added to the game will change, but at least I can express my opinion of the new improvements, as well as many who present the same type of dissatisfaction with this new introduction.
If many complain precisely about centering and friction at high speeds, it means that these people have at least driven a GoKart in their life or have had the opportunity to test different vehicles.

My advice for those who cannot adapt to the new FFB system:
- disable the game's FFB and drive with the centering and FFB of your steering wheel. You will lose some characteristics such as the feel of the ground or collisions, but you will surely have the centering at high and low speeds as you want.

-Try adjusting until you find a balance point where you feel comfortable with the new FFB. This implies taking into account the dexterity to not lose control of the truck at high speeds by wanting to drive with one hand on the wheel hahaha

-Make adjustments at the numerical configuration level in your profile files. I assure you, you will be able to get better results than with the sliders.

Greetings
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OttoReverse
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Re: From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

#9 Post by OttoReverse » 30 Oct 2021 11:59

So, there's three options: either SCS returns back to an old outdated way of doing things, you move back to 1.39 if you don't like current state of things or you bear the changes and keep playing newer versions.
Referencing your whole post on lighting, not just the above, your facts and knowledge…well I’ve read that before when the new lighting system dropped. It’s just not true. The notion that this is the way it is in all games is false. I’ve played many modern games with excellent lighting that just doesn’t suffer the same issues we have in this game. There’s a forth option, which is for SCS to fix the problem as other game developers have. ATS/ETS is the only game I’ve played that has these lighting issues. The only one.

People can’t realistically be expected to just go back to 1.39 either. Wyoming won’t play on it and hence any further map DLC’s won’t. And mod trucks had to be redone for the lighting so finding older versions is a problem plus of you can find them you are stuck with whatever limits/bugs those older versions have.

As I said, “go back to 1.39” and “there’s nothing SCS can do” are excuses.
Some newbie driver
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Re: From a frustrated but still addicted Truck sim fan

#10 Post by Some newbie driver » 30 Oct 2021 13:02

OttoReverse wrote: 30 Oct 2021 11:59Referencing your whole post on lighting, not just the above, your facts and knowledge…well I’ve read that before when the new lighting system dropped. It’s just not true. The notion that this is the way it is in all games is false. I’ve played many modern games with excellent lighting that just doesn’t suffer the same issues we have in this game.
Just to "have played" some games doesn't give you the knowledge to judge what SCS has done with 1.40 update; neither what it's left to be done. And no, you have not played games that don't suffer this problem unless you played some specific modern tittles with HDR capable hardware.

You (and me, an lots of people) have played games that had used other tricks to fake lights that SCS game didn't have. All games had been using them last 10 to 15 byears (while SCS has jumped directly from something still older; hence the big change and why I said that old system had no place anymore in 2021). If we compare with other driving games (to be the most direct comparison); all the interiors of vehicles use to have way more light that they should to avoid what is happening now in the truck cabins in SCS games. They just fake the levels of light, baked with some extra fancy effects, better textures, better AA that give an overall better visuals that make lots of players to consider it more OK and better that what SCS has done. But in no way the light on those games is realistic. It just a trick more evolved that the ones used by SCS prior 1.40.

The only way to have realistic light levels is to move to HDR and the only way to have really realistic global illumination is to move to raytracing (something that it's really far away for SCS). Everything else is outdated technologies in 2021.What it's not going to do SCS is to do changes in 2021 to put in the game technologies of 2010; that would be a waste of time and money that in 2 years would look outdated again. They had moved directly to internal HDR and true values of light as one of the steps necessary to make the game be truly modern once all those changes will be completed. We know they have to do a second lighting changes regarding the shadowing of al punctual sources of lights. And we know also they are working on a completely new render system (one of the reasons they had tell us, plain and simple, they are not going to waste time changing AA before that render will be released).

They aren't going to loose time with tricks and botches just to make some people happy while perpetually delaying a proper modernization of the whole engine of the game. That could be done by really big studios that could sustain a team that "keeps pretty" the current game while another team is working in the technical leap for the next one. SCS doesn't have the size neither a funding editor behind to sustained that kind of development.

So, yes, those are the options we have and it doesn't matter that you, me or whoever don't like them. Nobody forces us to install the last updates. We purchased a game back in time, we were OK with the game in that state; then we can keep the game the way it was if the newer versions doesn't suit our tastes. Or we can abandon the game if we end bored of the old version and neither want to move to next one. What we aren't going to do is to dictate the way SCS is going to schedule the internal changes of its code. Forget about any possibility of this going to happen.

Regards
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