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performance concerns

Yincognito
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Joined: 27 Apr 2021 09:55

Re: performance concerns

#31 Post by Yincognito » 05 May 2021 18:04

Some newbie driver, are you sure you're not secretly working for SCS? :D

Just joking here, of course, but I couldn't help noticing that apparently all your posts in this topic are (incorrectly) claiming that the culprit for this is the user's computer and not the overkill detail level of Iberia DLC, especially in cities. Basically, looking for excuses to justify this unfortunate situation, pretty much like the moderators / developers in this topic, who seem to have trouble with either semantics (e.g. "FPS drop is not stutter") or with reproducing the problem (e.g. "so far we are not able to reproduce such problems"), like a gamer wouldn't be able to tell the difference or would lie about his experience with the game that anyone can see (still wondering what is to "reproduce" about this, I mean it's a clear fact provable by dozens of performance monitor software)... It's amusing because it starts to sound like Microsoft when they're denying bugs in Windows and blame the user's poor configuration, if you know what I mean. I guess that's the fate of all companies when they get bigger, they start caring less and less about the user feedback.

That being said, I can also confirm the problem in Iberia DLC: massive FPS drop and stutter, in cities or in nearby areas of roads that have greater detail (e.g. walls on a side of the road, higher rockier terrain, etc). It's NOT (I repeat, NOT) the user's computer or its configuration at fault for this, but the Iberia DLC (possibly in combination with the "new" 1.40 version and its lighting system), period - because it doesn't happen in other areas of the map, despite the same computer and/or configuration. Now that in itself wouldn't be a problem, since, to be fair, one has to adapt to a game's system requirements, but:
- it seriously unbalances the game, with 10% of the map having radically different system requirements than the other 90% (almost like an entirely different game)
- you can't do anything about it using the regular game settings (i.e. setting the detail level to Low and such), with the only (possible, not tested yet) workaround through the parameters passed to the game executable, like others suggested

I know the usual excuse for this kind of situations: if you don't like it, buy a new computer. Thing is, only a few people are born rich and most people don't have rockets that can get them to the Moon and back as their PCs. They would probably like to play any DLC they own and having one of them requiring a top notch PC when the rest of the game components don't really kills the joy of playing it. In all fairness, I clearly saw SCS did indeed optimize several aspects of the game, mostly in the menus or other "windows", but the situation in Iberia's cities needs a serious re-evaluation from them. By the way, I'm a programmer as well, so I understand the different aspects of this, but it still feels (and is) wrong, especially when you paid money for this otherwise great DLC...

P.S. What makes me cautiously optimistic about this is the fact that there were such problems with other DLCs in the past and they were solved. Not sure what to make of attempting to deny the problem exists or having trouble understand it though, this doesn't sound too well - but who knows, maybe it's just me being picky.

Some newbie driver
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Re: performance concerns

#32 Post by Some newbie driver » 08 May 2021 18:23

No, I don't need to work for SCS to request people that complain cold objective data and proper tests if I'm going to share my time to try to help them. If you can't understand the difference and your first message here is just going to start with the usual ad hominem garbage; then I'm not going to lose anymore time talking with you.

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vulchor
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Re: performance concerns

#33 Post by vulchor » 11 May 2021 04:58

So I just booted up the game for the first time since 1.40 dropped, and man for me with my graphics settings from 1.39 its downright unplayable. I'm usually not too sensitive about any FPS of 30 and above, occassional drops to 25 I can deal with. But ETS2 has always been okay for me, usually sitting between 40 and 55 FPS, which at 4k and all settings cranked, has been fine for me over the years. I was bummed with the DX11 transition when I couldn't use NPI to force sparce-grid super sampling anymore, since that set up was better for performance and visuals, but my machine could still handle the 400% scaling just fine. But this is the first time that I seriously am having trouble.

Just looking around my cabin I get about 15 fps now. I have a GTX 1080 Ti that is more than serviceable, 32 GB of RAM, and an i9 10850k. This is an unacceptable impact for me, and I haven't even checked out Iberia yet. There is simply no reason I can think of for one update to have this drastic of an effect on a machine as capable as mine. Anyone got any ideas? I'm not playing with mods except for some of Oscar's dashboards and some personal def tweaks, and it was a brand new install in December when I had to rebuild my comp.

Edit: okay I added -mm_pool_size 4000 -mm_max_resource_size 40 -mm_max_tmp_buffers_size 1000 to my launch options and my fps improved, but still just sitting outside of my garage in cabin view, and looking around my cabin was super stuttery. Although my fps counter was saying 44 fps, it felt like 20 with how much stutter there was. Had to decrease my scaling to 300% in order to achieve the type of performance I had before 1.40. 300% scaling isn't an even scale, you really do need the 400% option for decent anti-aliasing, 300% is a big hit to my visuals but its the only way this is playable.
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Yincognito
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Re: performance concerns

#34 Post by Yincognito » 11 May 2021 15:29

vulchor wrote:
11 May 2021 04:58
So I just booted up the game for the first time since 1.40 dropped, and man for me with my graphics settings from 1.39 its downright unplayable [...]
For me, the performance drop from 1.38 to 1.40 has been noticeable, but relatively acceptable. Yes, there was a drop in FPS and occasional stutter, but it was still "reasonable" for my system. The launch parameters appear to be the only to (slightly) alleviate the problem, judging from other posts on the matter, but a word of advice: if you thought 1.39 to 1.40 is unplayable, you'd better wait until SCS patches the Iberia DLC first to properly correct stuff (if they'll ever do it, that is, since they have no commercial reason for it now), or you'll be in for a HUGE dissapointment - to put it mildly - in terms of performance. I have wait times of SEVERAL SECONDS between frames in various urban areas of the latest DLC, and remember, I feel 1.40 in other parts of the map is somewhat reasonable, unlike your case.

Of course, there aren't that kind of problems on the roads between cities, assuming you're at least 10-20 km from urban areas, but naturally, you can't spend your entire time outside Iberian cities, you have to load and unload cargos and so on. I'm not even touching the vehicle crashes resulting from this issue. Personally I'm almost done exploring all the cities/ villages in the DLC so I can leave the heck out of it and enjoy the rest of the map (i.e. what I can) properly.

Unfortunately, I don't think these posts that reveal the problem will help much. There's are surprisingly few (both here and on Steam) compared to the severity of the issue, and the answers either pretend the issue doesn't exist, can't be reproduced, blame your hardware or you're simply censored or treated condescendingly by folks who think they know better. When one criticizes that attitude in a civilized manner without any offensive language, they rate your posts as "garbage" ... and then accuse the critic of ad hominem attacks, LOL. Anyway, what I would be interested in is to WHAT VALUES exactly you have to set your launch parameters, depending on the size of your RAM and other system properties though. Does anyone know that?

My system specifications, for people requesting "cold", "objective" data:
TOSHIBA SATELLITE C855-12Z PSKCEE-006005G5
CPU : Intel Core i3-2350M CPU (2.30GHz, FSB 1333 MHz, CACHE 3072 MB)
RAM : 4 GB DDR3 (1333 MHz) / 2 EXPANSION SLOTS -> MAX RAM = 8 GB DDR3
HDD : HITACHI HTS547564A9E384 SATA II (640 GB HDD, 5400 RPM)
MONITOR : 15.6" LED HD (1366x768 WXGA HD) - TFT HD TRUBRITE TECHNOLOGY
VIDEO CARD : AMD HD 7610M (1GB DDR3)
Before anyone says anything, again, for the rest of 90% of the map, the game works FINE. There is a FPS drop in 1.40, but nowhere as serious as in Iberia DLC.
Last edited by Yincognito on 11 May 2021 15:42, edited 2 times in total.

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plykkegaard
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Re: performance concerns

#35 Post by plykkegaard » 11 May 2021 17:22

The thing is unless SCS can reproduce and pin point the problem it it is next to impossible to fix it
Digging in blindfolded and feeling lucky today is not going to cut it

Sorry but some have an issue with the game and some hasn\t
Literally it can be anything

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Some newbie driver
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Re: performance concerns

#36 Post by Some newbie driver » 11 May 2021 21:29

Yincognito wrote:
11 May 2021 15:29
or treated condescendingly by folks who think they know better. When one criticizes that attitude in a civilized manner without any offensive language, they rate your posts as "garbage" ... and then accuse the critic of ad hominem attacks, LOL.
Quoted from the wikipedia:
Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, refers to several types of arguments, some but not all of which are fallacious. Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
Now the start of your previous message:
Some newbie driver, are you sure you're not secretly working for SCS? :D

Just joking here, of course, but I couldn't help noticing that apparently all your posts in this topic are (incorrectly) claiming that the culprit for this is the user's computer and not the overkill detail level of Iberia DLC, especially in cities. Basically, looking for excuses to justify this unfortunate situation, pretty much like the moderators / developers in this topic,
And blah blah blah

So yes, the usual ad-hominem garbage by here. And I don't are you said "you was joking". It's not a joke, it's not funny and it's the poor excuse to not to be kicked as you had should. Because that's not "civilized" no matter you don't use any harsh word; don't take me as a fool.

You know what's "garbage" too? One laptop over 8 years age, with low-end mobile CPU, with slow SO-DIMM DDR3, and a pretty basic GPU (fortunately for you, not Intel at least) that is still more limited due the thermal constrains of a laptop chassis. I understand perfectly that not anybody can have a high-end gaming computer (specially on those days); but you can't pretend to have a proper performance with that hardware and to blame SCS for it. Your hardware passes the minimum specs; that mean you can't run the game, only that, nothing else.

Yes, the rest of the map works fine enough for you. Of course there's a change, the rest of the map is OLDER than Iberia. ANY improvement in graphics details will mean the same hardware than before will perform worse (and Iberia has raised the bar A LOT). Add to this fact the lighting change, that means that it requires still more processing power as more complicated will be a scene (and the growing of that kind of things IS NOT LINEAR). We had the same complains as you with RttBS. And one year before with Baltics DLC. And one year before with Italy. Anybody that will be in the edge of it's hardware in one DLC will have problems in the next. ALWAYS.

The only way Iberia would not caused a performance toll for you would had been that it had been designed like older DLCs. In other words, that SCS would stagnate the graphical improvements in the game because you want to keep playing forever in good conditions with old hardware.

Guess what will SCS do regarding your complains.

goktugmen
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Re: performance concerns

#37 Post by goktugmen » 12 May 2021 11:05

So I've been reading these performance related topics for a while, both about the owned trailer ones and the ones about Iberia. As I'm in the potato league, I won't talk about any performance related issues.

But one thing made me wonder about how magical the issues happen then I started to think about the new feature that makes things harder and one thing came to my mind especially about Iberia. I remember that blog post about recording environment sounds in Iberian cities, I mostly play in Baltic and Nordic countries and I can say that there are no environment sounds or whatsoever; it's a dead silence when no cars or prefabs are around. So what makes me wonder is if ever in a way FMOD and sound processors may cause all these issues?

I use an aux audio card and if I select it as the device, though it's already the default one, if I choose it directly I start to experience stutters, opening windows, going around prefabs with sounds and such. Just an insight, maybe someone smarter could see a lead here. Cheers.

Yincognito
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Re: performance concerns

#38 Post by Yincognito » 12 May 2021 12:41

Some newbie driver wrote:
11 May 2021 21:29
So yes, the usual ad-hominem garbage by here. [...] You know what's "garbage" too? One laptop over 8 years age [...]
Ok, my post is garbage, my laptop is garbage, I am probably garbage as well - feel free to say it, it's not like the moderators will properly act on your offensive language (just like SCS doesn't seem like acting on the issue with the DLC/lighting), that thing is clear by now. Speculating semantics to your suit your narrative - although I shouldn't be the one to apologize, I'm sorry if you were upset by my harmless joke, by the way - won't erase the fact that such a poor supporting attitude is present in other posts of yours related to performance issues. Just one example of many, as far as I could see:
BO_97 wrote:
12 May 2021 06:55
Misleading ? Lets bring it to the point. I didnt played ETS2 for about one year, before that without any problems, now its unplayable, even in the standard version because of crashes, some after 5 Minutes playing, and then after one hour. Why dont target the error to the game and not to my setup ? [...] I did all steps, even uninstalling driver with DDU and a clear new install of my GPU driver. It seems that i have to live with the fact that there is no support finding cause of the problem, only to target the problem to my system. OK. I think that i should live with that and not to play the game until maybe a new patch/update maybe solves that problem.
Bear in mind, there were no so called "ad hominem attacks" in that thread, multiple logs were provided (i.e. cold, objective data you asked), and the advised procedures to fix the problem were followed by the user. Anyway, I would like to close this useless back and forth, because it's clear no proper action will be taken in the right direction, comments by the folks having more posts and happen to praise everything about SCS or the game have a green light no matter their contents - just wanted to show that the things I mentioned were noticed by others as well, so my language or my post wasn't the problem.
Some newbie driver wrote:
11 May 2021 21:29
I understand perfectly that not anybody can have a high-end gaming computer (specially on those days); but you can't pretend to have a proper performance with that hardware and to blame SCS for it. Your hardware passes the minimum specs; that mean you can't run the game, only that, nothing else.
I don't blame SCS for the performance of the game itself, I believe I made this clear earlier. But they are at fault for over-detailing stuff in the latest DLC to a level that: only some users requested; is detrimental to ALL systems (because all of them experience the huge FPS drop, irrespective if that drop is tolerable on high-end computers); is incompatible with the rest of the map, where it is NOT encountered. Your latest post actually acknowledges the last two things I mentioned, so why is there a problem in admitting they made a mistake and possibly raised the bar TOO high, turning the quest for progress that you referred to into a drawback for the latest version and/or DLC? Nobody and nothing is infallible, you know, be them SCS or one of their game versions.
Some newbie driver wrote:
11 May 2021 21:29
We had the same complains as you with RttBS. And one year before with Baltics DLC. And one year before with Italy. Anybody that will be in the edge of it's hardware in one DLC will have problems in the next. ALWAYS.
Precisely. I might be wrong with this, so please correct me if that's the case, but weren't those complaints eventually solved in an acceptable manner for the previous DLCs you mentioned? If that's so, that's all I (and others) ask. If not, well, they'll lose customers, at their own expense:
Simulationworld2020 wrote:
19 Apr 2021 07:46
I bought Iberia yesterday and luckily I got refunded. I guess I'll have to go back to older games from SCS in order to get an acceptable performance
Some newbie driver wrote:
11 May 2021 21:29
The only way Iberia would not caused a performance toll for you would had been that it had been designed like older DLCs. In other words, that SCS would stagnate the graphical improvements in the game because you want to keep playing forever in good conditions with old hardware.
That would be true if the system requirements for these versions/DLCs were radically different, in order to alert the user not to spend money on something that doesn't work as expected for him. However, both the minimum and the recommended system requirements for RttBS and Iberia are exactly the same, according to Steam. Now you understand how the user is the losing party here or you still defend this policy? Come on, you said others don\t understand this and that, I'm sure you'd have no problems understanding what this means (admitting it is a different issue though).
Some newbie driver wrote:
11 May 2021 21:29
Guess what will SCS do regarding your complains.
Disregard user feedback like any aspiring major company? Nothing new under the Sun, but still sad. I thought they were better than this, considering they did respect their original promise of expanding the Europe map further, and are otherwise a nice company with a nice game. But then, money and power change the best people, that's a given.
Last edited by Yincognito on 12 May 2021 13:16, edited 2 times in total.

Yincognito
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Re: performance concerns

#39 Post by Yincognito » 15 May 2021 13:50

Ok, I've identified the reason (or at least the visible one using the available tools at my disposal) why these performance issues happen, in my case: the GPU memory is filled to the maximum (1 GB for me) when driving through most of Iberia. My monitoring software showed near 1 GB GPU memory used in Iberia while in France it showed a more reasonable value of between 700 and 800 MB. The rest of the monitored values, like CPU and RAM usage didn't seem to indicate any "overflow", although naturally they were higher in Iberia. This at least partially explains why the mm_pool_size, mm_max_resource_size and mm_max_tmp_buffers_size parameters appear to help with the issue, as mentioned by others, but having no information of what those parameters exactly mean and what is their connection to the GPU used memory (since the RAM used memory seemed to be "normal", with only the pagefile usage 1 GB higher than areas in France) makes this guess work instead of setting things in a proper fashion.

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philbean
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Re: performance concerns

#40 Post by philbean » 16 May 2021 23:20

Its got to be the new lighting hasn't it ?

First I thought it was Iberia being 'badly optimised' then I thought it might be the owned trailer thing.. but tonight I'm driving thru France with a freight job and its still micro stuttering as it approaches each big intersection or gas station or town.
It didn't in 1.39 and I haven't changed anything other than adding Iberia.

It must be the lighting.
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