Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

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Reignman
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Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#1 Post by Reignman » 08 Aug 2020 03:24

Alright, what do we think of this build? It's been a long time since I even looked at what kind of PC part technology was out there, so I've spent the past month researching and trying to get caught up, and now I think I've finally reached the input phase.

My current PC is 12 years old, so it's finally time for an upgrade. Built it myself back in 2008, and it's by far the longest I've owned a single PC. Still has all the original parts too, so I think I did a good job xD.

First things first, I'm not necessarily looking to build a gaming PC, I'll need it to do a little of everything, video editing/rendering, spreadsheets, gaming, etc, and I'm on a budget (under $1000). I also would like this to last 5-10 years, so a lot of the rationale is based on possible future upgrades. So with that in mind, here are the parts I'm leaning toward, and my rationalization for those parts.

Processor: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 3.6 GHz 6-Core ($155)
After using Intel CPU's my whole life, AMD has won me over with their Ryzen series. The Ryzen 5 3600 seems to be popular atm, and it's affordable. The Ryzen series seems to have the best performance per dollar over Intel i series everywhere I look.

Motherboard: Gigabyte X570 AORUS ELITE WIFI ATX ($210)
I know I can get a cheaper MB for this build, but I decided to spend a little more on it with the future in mind. I wanted something compatible with the Ryzen 7 and 9 so I can upgrade the CPU later when the prices come down. The onboard WiFi was a plus, as well as it having 2x M.2 slots, the 128GB max memory (for future upgrades), DDR4 3200 compatible, and the X570 means I won't have to worry about flashing the BIOS to make it compatible with the Ryzen 3rd gen CPU's like you do the B450 models. From what I can tell, Gigabyte makes some quality MB's too. And although not important now, I thought the PCIe 4.0 could be a nice option to have down the road.

Graphics: EVGA GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER 4 GB SC ULTRA ($190)
This seemed like a nice budget GPU that should be fine for a few years. This is another part that I plan to upgrade down the road when GPU prices come down. I leaned toward getting an AMD GPU to make this an all AMD build, but like with Intel, I've been using Nvidia GPU's my entire life, and they seem to outperform the AMD cards, so I'd like to stick with Nvidia.

SSD: Western Digital Blue SN550 1 TB M.2-2280 NVME ($110)
I've never owned an SSD before, but I liked everything I read about them over the traditional HDD's ... except for their write durability. I tried to find the most affordable one with decent write life expectancy, and the faster NVMe technology. The M.2's also have a faster read speed than SATA SSD's, and I've seen people claim their PC boots in 10 seconds using them. A terabyte should be good enough for now, with an upgrade in mind down the road when they come down in price, hence the importance of having the 2x M.2 slots on the MB.

HDD: Seagate Barracuda Compute 2 TB 3.5" 7200RPM ($55)
Given the poorer write durability of SSD's, I also wanted a decent traditional HDD for the extra storage/backup.

RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 ($110)
For a brand I've heard of, G.Skill seems to offer the best prices when it comes to RAM, and I'm not seeing any complaints about their quality. I was only going to get 16GB (2x8 sticks) and get more down the road when needed, but 8GB sticks seem like a waste when the MB supports up to 32GB per slot, but ohhh boy single 32GB sticks of RAM aren't an option right now, so 2x16 it is, for now. Plus it's cheaper per GB than 2x8 ($60).

Power: EVGA BQ 600 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-modular ($83)
Believe it or not, when building this PC, I've probably spent the most time trying to figure out what to get for these next 2 parts. Power and case. They seem like the least important lol. Every power calculator I use suggests 400-500W would be good enough for this build, but again, I'm thinking future, so I wanted at least 600W to be safe. Modularity wasn't necessarily important but this EVGA looked like a good deal for a semi-modular. The all black cables were a plus, and EVGA is a reputable brand.

Case: Corsair 200R ATX Mid Tower ($65)
And I'm actually still undecided about the case, but I'm leaning toward this one today. I keep changing my mind. I think this one has it all though. Plenty of expansion slots, plenty of bays, and it has a nice clean look. I wasn't looking for anything flashy, like with colored LED's or anything like that. The USB 3, mic/headphone ports on the front were important, as well as the external bay slots, for like a blu-ray player or something, not that I need 3 of them haha. The only thing I don't like is the front ventilation. That front piece is solid with the vents on the sides of the front panel. But I can probably work with it because of the 2 top and 2 side spots for additional fans, so cooling shouldn't be an issue. I don't like how reset/power share the same button either, but that's a minor issue. Everyone complained about the cable management with this case, which is partly what sold me on the semi-modular power supply. I also watched some build videos using this case, and cable management didn't look that unbearable lol. First world problems I guess. I don't want to spend $100 on a case.

Monitor: Acer XF240H 24.0" 1920x1080 144 Hz ($200)
And finally the monitor. This was another part I ended up spending a lot of time on. My OCD wanted to learn what all the jargon meant, and then to find one that my build could take full advantage of. After the dust settled, I was looking for something that was 24 inches, 1080p, 144Hz, 1ms response time, supported 1.67 million colors, and was G-sync compatible. Unfortunately FreeSync compatible monitors are more common and they're cheaper, but FreeSync is for AMD GPU's, and I have my heart set on Nvidia, which is compatible with G-sync. So this is the cheapest monitor I can find that meets all of my requirements. It supports both G-sync and FreeSync, so that increases my GPU options down the road when I'm ready to upgrade. Maybe the 144Hz isn't important or worth the extra price over the 75Hz monitors right now, but it might be 5 years from now.

So that's $978 for the PC and $200 for the monitor. Is my rationalization wrong anywhere? Did my research fail me? Is there anything I could improve, or anywhere I could save? I learned as much as I could the last few weeks but now I'm itching to start buying/building xD. I'll probably spend a few more days contemplating, researching, and price watching. The Ryzen 5 went up $20 over last week, everywhere, so it's now $175 for whatever reason. I want that to come back down. Microcenter still has them for $155, but that's an in-store only CPU and the nearest one is 2 hours away. I'm hoping someone has a sale on that motherboard soon too xD.

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HeadSwitch
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#2 Post by HeadSwitch » 08 Aug 2020 04:50

I have recently upgraded to the exact same CPU and Motherboard and I can say I am very impressed with their performance and as you said, there is the option to upgrade the CPU later on.

At the moment the nVidia cards are better performance wise if you can find them for a good price and from what I hear EVGA is a very good brand.
If you were wanting to get something a bit better initially you could possibly save money on a few items I mention below.

If you just plan on using the SSD for Windows and other apps and the 2TB HDD for games etc I would possibly recomend going for a 500GB SSD instead and try to save a bit of money if the price difference is that much.
I got myself a 512GB Samsung Evo Plus M.2 drive and it is quick. I also use a 2TB WB Black for my games drive.

RAM specs look good but even 16GB should be heaps, unless you plan on doing something that requires 32GB of RAM. Not many games would make use of the. Especially not ATS.

As for the Power Supply more is always better, a power supply will reach it's peak efficiency at around 50% of it's capacity but 600w should be sufficient.

Some newbie driver
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#3 Post by Some newbie driver » 08 Aug 2020 12:10

First thing first, let me say that JUST NOW is a very BAD moment to change computer unless you will be forced to do so. Around the corner near Thanksgiving it's expected that new generation AMD CPUs appear, also new AMD and NVidia graphic cards and also for Christmas the next Xbox and Playstation consoles. All of that combined (and even if only half of the expectations on their performance are accomplished) will give a good kick to the PC parts market and it's expected to sink the prices of actual models as the ones you listed. And at the same time it will be the time of the year you know there's lots of crazy sales days that you could take profit. So, if you can wait a few months, you will be able to get a way better value for the same budget.

Second: your budget is a bit limited for a whole PC replacement monitor included, given the performance level you are searching for. That's forcing you to make some painful sacrifices. All your actual computer is 12 years old? You said it has all the original parts but you don't specify if it has received any additional upgrade. So, 12 years old graphic card? And hard drive? Monitor too? Just to know if there's something salvageable that could be used still a few more years on new computer to save that money now for other things.

Now, about the parts in detail:

Processor: Nothing to argue against; price per value a very good choice.

Motherboard: I've the same and I'm very happy with it; with the only difference that I've the non-wifi version. I've a good reliable LAN cable to the router; I prefer that than wi-fi connections and that save me a few bucks. Of course, with an X570 chipset you are paying now the price of some things that you will need years to take full vantage (the PCIe-4, the amount of RAM...). And about B450 chipset compatibility, you could find plenty of motherboards already updated in the BIOS to allow Ryzen Zen 2 CPUs; so that shouldn't worry you beyond the fact to have to check that point. It's up to you. Also, wi-fi is one of the most fast-evolving mainstream technology. How many wi-fi version have we got in the last 15 years? Integrated wi-fi in mainboard means you are stuck at that wi-fi level and that in a future it will be deadweight or an anchor. I preffer expansion cards for Wi-Fi interfaces.

Graphic card: AMD doesn't beat NVidia at the top tier range. But at mid and low you will have better prices or better value at the same price on an AMD card; with your tight budget it's something to have in mind. One RX580 or RX590 should beat that NVidia and will have double the VRAM for a similar price (the con is that AMD ones will be way more power hungry, even they will not require a change in your PSU).

SSD: The one you chosen is one of the best disk in their category. Unfortunately, that category is of those SSD without DRAM cache, one piece that increases enormously either the performance and the lifespan of an SSD. Even so, unless you are going to use the SSD for intensive professional-like work, the aging of an SSD shouldn't had to worry you (and if it happens, they will be a cheap piece to replace in the future). That leads us to the next point...

Mechanical HDD: Absolutely unnecessary unless you really have a need of storage in your computer that goes beyond 800GB (it's a good advise not to fill an SSD over the 80% unless temporarily). And if even so, you could keep using your newest HDD on the old computer and use it for that. The lifespan of either that old HDD or the new SSD shouldn't had to worry you because what will save you in the future is to have a proper backup of your data; not a reliable hard drive (in which you could not really trust, because reliability is an average statistic, not a value carved in stone for every individual drive).

RAM: Even with the workloads you say you want to do, I think 32GB is too much to purchase now. Also, that RAM doesn't pair nice with the FSB of the CPU. On Ryzen Zen2 CPUs, the internal and the FSB clocks are decoupled so you don't have to worry of instability or the CPU downlocking itself, but a RAM that could reliably go at 3.600MHz would hit the sweet spot and the performance boost in the system would be very noticeably; more than having 32 GB or RAM that most of the time could probably be empty. In the future you always could increase the RAM with 16GB more if really needed.

Power source: Good choice enough, nothing to say against.

Case: As you say, simple model without costly extras. It has the basics and some good details considering the price and no useless gimmicks. Is it worth to spent 100€ or more on a case? If you have the money yes, it is. Because the extra gimmicks? No, not at all. I've an sturdy Antec case with no visual fanciness, no useless glass panel and all that kind of stuff. It cost me a good bunch of money but that was 12 years ago on the previous computer. It still seems almost new with some maintenance from time to time and a deep clean while I changed to actual computer. I expect it to last me all the age of this one so it could reach 20 years and maybe it could be useful for the next. So, it worth every cent I payed for it. That's one of the sacrifices you have to do with your tight budget.

Monitor: Hard to decide, because there are not good all-rounders (or not at least at a reasonable price). This another of the parts where you are sacrificing a lot due your constrains (and specially when paying the extra price of G-Sync monitors, unless you change your mind on the graphic card). Remember too that you are aiming to mind-tier graphic cards; so don't expect to usually take profit of those 144Hz of refresh rate. I would prefer to have a 2K monitor or better colors/brightness that would be better for other works you want to do. Although, again, you will have to sacrifice something important on that range of prices . For example the Lenovo L24q-30 23.8" has the 2K, free Sync and 75Hz but it has a low 240 in brightness (against the 350 of the model you chose).

So, as I said, if you can wait just a few months to maybe have a bit extra budget and specially to catch the better prices that are expected to happen on that tier of hardware you are aiming; you could have a way better PC.

Regards

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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#4 Post by plykkegaard » 08 Aug 2020 12:21

Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 03:24
Gigabyte X570 AORUS ELITE WIFI ATX
You don't want to use WiFi on a desktop PC build for gaming, learned from experience having to kids which are dedicated to online gaming :D
Sorry, out of office

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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#5 Post by Reignman » 08 Aug 2020 23:06

Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
First thing first, let me say that JUST NOW is a very BAD moment to change computer unless you will be forced to do so.
Oh wow, thanks for the very detailed and helpful response, I appreciate it. You make a very compelling case for some of these parts, and for waiting, I just don't know if I can for another 3-4 months lol. I know I've waited 12 years already, so what's another few months? The main reason I wanted one now was because of the NFL season. I need to get back into video making. I tried with this PC, but I can only do 720p at best, and my CPU tends to BSOD on me during rendering (overheating), so I had to stop. The video quality was crap anyway. Thanksgiving will be the middle of the season, and put me behind, but I'll still have to think about it, or at the very least research it some more. I want this new PC to last 5-10 years, so getting the best bang for my buck is important.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Second: your budget is a bit limited for a whole PC replacement monitor included, given the performance level you are searching for. That's forcing you to make some painful sacrifices.
Well the idea was to make some sacrifices now, but leave room for upgrades down the road when necessary, and when things become cheaper.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
All your actual computer is 12 years old? You said it has all the original parts but you don't specify if it has received any additional upgrade. So, 12 years old graphic card? And hard drive? Monitor too?
Yep, the whole thing is 12 years old, never replaced anything except I've added some HDD's along the way, and some RAM. Pretty good considering how much I've used it. Almost 16 hours a day for the full 12 years, so well over 50,000 hours. I wish the CPU had a counter on it or something so I could check. I no longer use the original HDD, but I still have it in a box somewhere. Every once in awhile I want a fresh start, so rather than try to search through a HDD looking for everything I want to keep before reformatting it, I just buy a new HDD. I did have 2 other HDD's fail on me along the way. The GPU fan has experienced some sagging because a little rubber washer wore down to dust, which causes it to rub against its plastic housing, making it sound like a weed whacker lol, but now I run my PC upside down to help minimize that xD. Also every 6 months I take the entire PC apart and give it a thorough cleaning, all the fans, all the nooks and crannies. The heat sink on the CPU gets a new coat of thermal paste, and I take the GPU apart to clean the fins and fan, give it a new layer of thermal too. I experience a noticeable drop in temps after I do that, and it purrs like a kitten again afterward xD. It's probably due for another cleaning.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Just to know if there's something salvageable that could be used still a few more years on new computer to save that money now for other things.
The only thing salvageable would be the HDD's, but I plan to keep using this PC until it dies. I'm almost curious to see how long it'll last now.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Motherboard: I've the same and I'm very happy with it; with the only difference that I've the non-wifi version. I've a good reliable LAN cable to the router; I prefer that than wi-fi connections and that save me a few bucks.
You and @plykkegaard have made me consider looking for the non-wifi version. The wifi was a bonus because sometimes I drag my PC along when I go visiting, and running a LAN cable across the room isn't always an option, but that probably doesn't happen often enough to justify having it.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Of course, with an X570 chipset you are paying now the price of some things that you will need years to take full vantage (the PCIe-4, the amount of RAM...).
Haha yep, that was the idea with the motherboard. I want one that gives me the room to upgrade, because we don't know what the future holds as far as technology goes. I could probably get by with a max 64GB of RAM, but what if RAM becomes cheaper and more of a priority for software or whatever in a few years? The same way HDD storage became a priority recently, because games are now 60-100 GB each, and don't even get me started on the size of video files xD. Or maybe it's because 12 years ago I didn't think I'd ever need more than 8GB of RAM, which is the max for my current motherboard, but I was wrong there. 128GB sounds like too much now, but what about in 5 years?
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
And about B450 chipset compatibility, you could find plenty of motherboards already updated in the BIOS to allow Ryzen Zen 2 CPUs; so that shouldn't worry you beyond the fact to have to check that point. It's up to you.
Yeah I dug into it, but I'd rather just not have to deal with it, or worry about it lol.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Also, wi-fi is one of the most fast-evolving mainstream technology. How many wi-fi version have we got in the last 15 years? Integrated wi-fi in mainboard means you are stuck at that wi-fi level and that in a future it will be deadweight or an anchor. I preffer expansion cards for Wi-Fi interfaces.
You make a compelling argument here. I have the future in mind with this build, and you're right, this could be a useless or inferior feature in a few years. I could save some cheddar there.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Graphic card: AMD doesn't beat NVidia at the top tier range. But at mid and low you will have better prices or better value at the same price on an AMD card; with your tight budget it's something to have in mind. One RX580 or RX590 should beat that NVidia and will have double the VRAM for a similar price (the con is that AMD ones will be way more power hungry, even they will not require a change in your PSU).
I didn't check or benchmark too many top tier cards, just mainly looked at cards for my current budget. The main reason I prefer Nvidia is the familiarity, so unless the top tier (future) AMD GPU's blow Nvidia out of the water in the price/performance category, I'll probably stick with Nvidia here. I only checked to see if AMD could woo me enough in that department to consider a change, like they did with the CPU, but it didn't happen.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
SSD: The one you chosen is one of the best disk in their category. Unfortunately, that category is of those SSD without DRAM cache, one piece that increases enormously either the performance and the lifespan of an SSD.
Ahhh good to know. I hadn't even considered DRAM cache, so I'll have to look into it. The lifespan of an SSD was an important feature to me. It's not so much the cost to replace or whatever, it's the potential loss of data that concerns me the most lol.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Mechanical HDD: Absolutely unnecessary unless you really have a need of storage in your computer that goes beyond 800GB (it's a good advise not to fill an SSD over the 80% unless temporarily). And if even so, you could keep using your newest HDD on the old computer and use it for that.
I'll probably exceed 800GB lol. And the HDD's on the old PC are getting full, and up there in age. My current 1.5TB HDD is 90% full. HDD's are relatively cheap. I'm thinking SSD's will come down in price, have longer life spans, and increase in size the next few years, so I'll keep relying on traditional HDD's for backup and extra storage for now. I'll just use the SSD for speed, booting and running programs. In fact I might even just get a 512GB SSD for now, haven't decided yet. On the other hand, your 80% tip makes me think I should probably stick with the TB. Cuz yeah, now I can see how a full SSD could lead to a shorter lifespan.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
The lifespan of either that old HDD or the new SSD shouldn't had to worry you because what will save you in the future is to have a proper backup of your data; not a reliable hard drive (in which you could not really trust, because reliability is an average statistic, not a value carved in stone for every individual drive).
Ain't that the truth? I had to learn that the hard way having had HDD's fail on me before. One of my newest ones failed on me first, but the original 12yo one still works. It's a crap shoot, but it still doesn't hurt to get a SSD that scores high in the lifespan category.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
RAM: Even with the workloads you say you want to do, I think 32GB is too much to purchase now.
Even for 1080p video editing/rendering? I thought RAM was important for that task and $110 didn't seem that unreasonable. I guess I could ride with a single stick of 16GB to see how it goes, I just didn't want to roll with 2x8GB. 8GB sticks sound like an eventual waste for what I have in mind with this build.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Also, that RAM doesn't pair nice with the FSB of the CPU. On Ryzen Zen2 CPUs, the internal and the FSB clocks are decoupled so you don't have to worry of instability or the CPU downlocking itself, but a RAM that could reliably go at 3.600MHz would hit the sweet spot and the performance boost in the system would be very noticeably; more than having 32 GB or RAM that most of the time could probably be empty.
Oooo boy, this is why you ask questions boys and girls lol. I'm definitely going to look into this. I settled on 3200 because the 3600 required overclocking most motherboards, something I don't want to get into, overclocking. I didn't know 3600 was the sweet spot for Ryzen however.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Power source: Good choice enough, nothing to say against.
Good, up until I saw the EVGA just the other day I was unsure about any of the other power supplies I was looking at. The EVGA grabbed me for whatever reason, unlike any of the others.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Case: As you say, simple model without costly extras.
Yep, I'm not into any of that fancy LED stuff, or side panels lol. I just want something that functions, has enough expansion slots, has room, and good ventilation. The case I bought 12 years ago is a tank. Big and heavy. I could probably survive a nuclear blast if I hid inside of it haha. An Enermax Chakra. They seem expensive now, but I don't remember what I paid for it 12 years ago. Overall my PC build back then was about $1150, not including a monitor. I think I got my money's worth, and that's the plan with the new one.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
Monitor: specially when paying the extra price of G-Sync monitors, unless you change your mind on the graphic card
I was just talking to a friend about this. The 144Hz is probably something the average person would never notice, and I probably won't either, but now that I know it exists, it's something that sounds like it might be more important later. Like the PCIe 4.0. I know it's a little more expensive now, but I don't want it to be something I regret later. It's there if I need it, my system supports it, and I won't have to buy a new monitor down the road to unlock my systems full capability. It's more of a peace of mind purchase I guess xD.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
I would prefer to have a 2K monitor or better colors/brightness that would be better for other works you want to do.
You've made another compelling argument here though. A 2K monitor fits better into the whole "future" theme I got going on here. The build is currently setup for 1080p, but yeah, the higher end CPU/GPU's are geared for 1440p, so that's something I need to reconsider. If I remember correctly, G-sync is only compatible with 144Hz monitors, so I could take that off the table as a concern too and open my options in the 75Hz monitor department.
Some newbie driver wrote:
08 Aug 2020 12:10
So, as I said, if you can wait just a few months to maybe have a bit extra budget and specially to catch the better prices that are expected to happen on that tier of hardware you are aiming; you could have a way better PC.
Yeah, you and your compelling arguments lol. That's tempting, I just don't know if I can wait that long. I've gotten the itch now, and I've already been at this for a month or so xD. I would like to have a new build in time for the NFL season, but waiting a few months would help me a lot down the road. I've never paid attention, is that when they usually roll out the next line of PC technology, in the fall? On the other hand, I could play the "if I wait a few more months" game indefinitely lol. If I knew the Ryzen 7 prices would come down to current Ryzen 5 levels in a few months, I could probably wait, but what kind of price reduction are we actually talking about here?

I could be a free man by next week, but you want to extend my 12 year sentence by another few months, so that's borderline torture lol. Oh well, I need to at least take a little more time to research and digest some of the tips you've recommended here, which I appreciate. They Ryzen 5 went up $20 recently, so now I want to wait for that to comeback down too. I'm very patient, I just don't know if I'm 3-4 months patient xD.

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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#6 Post by plykkegaard » 08 Aug 2020 23:20

Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
Haha yep, that was the idea with the motherboard. I want one that gives me the room to upgrade
Things tends to go really fast, you might face a new socket sooner than you think, been there more than a couple of times
Sorry, out of office

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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#7 Post by Reignman » 09 Aug 2020 00:35

Yep, that's another lesson I learned with my current PC when I built it 12 years ago. That was just before Intel came out with their i series. I went with one of the better Intel Core 2 Quad's available at the time, which is a completely different socket from the i series, so my CPU upgrading options were basically zero after that unless I bought a new MB too.

But at least with Ryzen, the 3, 5, 7, and 9's all share the same socket, so I can get the cheaper 5 now, which is good enough to do anything I need to do, and I can upgrade to the 7 or 9 in the future when it's needed and they're more affordable, and I won't need a new MB. If I ever need a better processor than the 16 core Ryzen 9 3950x, then it'll be time for a new PC anyway lol. The $3500 64 core Ryzen Threadripper, which requires a different socket, might never be affordable in my lifetime xD.

Some newbie driver
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#8 Post by Some newbie driver » 09 Aug 2020 00:59

Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
Oh wow, thanks for the very detailed and helpful response, I appreciate it.
You are welcome. Sometimes I'm in the mood and have time enough to give a hand. And I like people who likes to care for their rigs for long time. ;)
and for waiting, I just don't know if I can for another 3-4 months lol.
Of course, if you are having problems with your computer and NEED it working (not just a desire, but need it for your work); then you will have to deal with what you find now. One option could be to let the monitor upgrade for later. Another one I guess is to purchase a second hand VGA for 30 or 40 bucks and if it last 2 years it would had worth and saved you a good chunk of money now. Consider that this is almost what I've done; I upgraded my whole computer but the graphic card (had no more budget and I'm not playing demanding games ATM). So, I decided to maintain until they get burnt my 10-year old cards (they were almost top tier in its time, but that doesn't change they have 10 years). And I'm playing SCS games (and others) with a more than enough performance. So, if you can find a 7 years old decent VGA for a cheap, you could try. It's always a risk but...
Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
Well the idea was to make some sacrifices now, but leave room for upgrades down the road when necessary, and when things become cheaper.
But some of those sacrifices are the case (it's a pain in the ass to change it later) or the monitor (something nobody wants to change soon because they are expensive and long lasting). Also the SSD because there's a big price gap on those with DRAM cache.
Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
You and @plykkegaard have made me consider looking for the non-wifi version.
Bear in mind though that it's just not a big price difference. My comment was more aiming the fact that wi-fi is the biggest bugger in what internet connection problems concerns. If you want it to work nice and with good performing for gaming you need to spend more money in a proper wi-fi emitter. That m,oney will almos always be better invested on a LAN cable and better PC parts. Too many times I've seen people spending 2.000€ or more in a "gaming" rig to see them playing through awful wi-fi setups while they try to argue me their poor aiming performance is because they don't achieve 144Hz in the monitor but just 120. :roll:

There's also something I forget to mention before. B450 chipset motherboards were the "normal" ones for Ryzen 2nd Gen (that's why the BIOS update needed for 3rd Gen). X570 is the enthusiast chipset for Ryzen 3rd Gen but also there's the just released (almost new) B550; the normal chipset native for Ryzen 3rd Gen. You could check motherboards with that chipset; they aren't cheap basic (those would be A520 ones) but you still could save some money regarding the X570 ones. If you don't pretend to overclock or change to high tier R9 3800X/3900X CPUs, there should be good options.

Also, about the socket, don't get confused by the 3,5,7 names of Ryzens. That's just to differentiate segments (entry, medium and enthusiast) like i3, i5, and i7 for Intel. What's important regarding the socket is the generation of the processor. Actual gen3 Ryzen for desktops (zen2 architecture) use the AM4 socket that was released for them. At the end of this year Gen4 Ryzen for desktops would appear still using AM4 sockets. So, with a BIOS update, your motherboard purchased now would at least be equipped with a gen4 Ryzen for desktops (there would be not big difference in features, but it will be in performance). And if AMD keeps working as up to recently; it's possible that Gen 5 Ryzens for desktop could also be mounted on AM4 sockets; but probably at the cost of some features those future hypothetical Ryzens could have (for example, support for an hypothetical DDR5 RAM memory). That's the kind of roadmap that more or less AMD has followed in the past 12 years.
Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
I didn't check or benchmark too many top tier cards, just mainly looked at cards for my current budget. The main reason I prefer Nvidia is the familiarity, so unless the top tier (future) AMD GPU's blow Nvidia out of the water in the price/performance category, I'll probably stick with Nvidia here. I only checked to see if AMD could woo me enough in that department to consider a change, like they did with the CPU, but it didn't happen.
But the point is it doesn't matter what NVidia or AMD do with their actual or future top tiers; you ar aiming at current released middle tier and that should be your focus. I understand people that is familiar with NVidia and want to keep that. And for SCS games there's also the bonus of how the Inspector can be used to squeeze better performance of the game (I really don't know if there's something equivalent with AMD cards). But if your concern is value per price; AMD beats NVidia at your budget. I suggest you to look at Tom's Hardware graphic cards roundups. There's lots of places that do reliable reviews, but almost no one like them who take 40 different GPUs of all tiers and test them together presenting a tiered results so anybody could know where each card fits. And they did one recently for cards in the market in 2020.
Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
Ahhh good to know. I hadn't even considered DRAM cache, so I'll have to look into it.
To be more precise, DRAM cache skyrocket the speed response of SSD (specially writing) and also increases a lot its lifespan because the loss of life of an SSD is due each writing operation in the cells. DRAM cache allows the controller to pack several instructions on a single real write into the NAND. For media encoding and big files works like it seems you will do intensively, it's a MUST. I've always had good result with Samsung high tier SSD; but as I said earlier, the price difference is high in that. You could consider it for a future upgrade; at the end, any SSD now will be way better than anything on your actual PC. Once you upgrade, the cheap SSD could become secondary storage.
Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
On the other hand, your 80% tip makes me think I should probably stick with the TB. Cuz yeah, now I can see how a full SSD could lead to a shorter lifespan.
the 80% tip is due lifespan AND performance. Actual SSD use to be TLC or even QLC architecture; that allow more data density at cheaper price but significantly reduces performance and lifespan. SSD controllers can make a little part of the remaining free space of the disk (usually near 10%) to work in SLC mode, way faster and with lower degradation. But as I said, that's an small part of the space you have actually free on your disk. If you leave 200GB free, you could write up to a 20GB file in faster mode without problems. Also, the free space allows the SSD controller to distribute the wear of the NAND cells more evenly across all the disk; increasing the average lifespan.
Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
Ain't that the truth?
A truth that too many people understands too late and by the painful way.
Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
Even for 1080p video editing/rendering? I thought RAM was important for that task and $110 didn't seem that unreasonable. I guess I could ride with a single stick of 16GB to see how it goes, I just didn't want to roll with 2x8GB. 8GB sticks sound like an eventual waste for what I have in mind with this build.
Well, now that you detailed a big more what you do with your rig, those 32GB have more sense, even if not immediately, soon you will need them. Anyway, anything but to work on single-channel.
Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
Oooo boy, this is why you ask questions boys and girls lol. I'm definitely going to look into this. I settled on 3200 because the 3600 required overclocking most motherboards, something I don't want to get into, overclocking. I didn't know 3600 was the sweet spot for Ryzen however.
RAM speed of 3600 is the sweet spot for Ryzen gen3 in general due it's internal CPU bus (called Infinity Fabric) can be put at work on 1.800MHz very easily and stable; so you have a 1:1 relation with the clock of the RAM and, in the case of your CPU model, also with the CPU cores base clock. So, essentially, no mail part of your system will cause latencies on the others. As I told, Gen 3 Ryzens have the RAM clock decoupled from the internal bus clock. That allows a lot higher flexibility choosing RAM modules of any speed; included the nominal one of 3.200. But the nice point to achieve, and it's very easy on that range of hardware you chose, is to achieve the 1:1 where you will have the best performance/clock ratio.

Bear in mind also that DDR4 specifications tops at 2.400MHz. Anything above that IS an overclocking, no matter how they wanna call it. In fact, if you doesn't activate that on purpose on the motherboard BIOS, your RAM will work at 2.400MHz (again, you can't imagine how many "gaming computers" I've seen with that setup :roll:). Point is that older B450 models motherboards (there's also new ones without that problem) were designed for the memory speeds that could achieve Ryzen Gen 2 processors, not the highest Gen3 ones; that's what you probably saw somewhere mentioned. That's one of the benefits of your chosen motherboard (or some B550 one), it's designed to reach 3.200 nominal but easily beyond that accordingly to the 3rd Gen capabilities (for higher speeds over 3.600 then yes, a good x570 motherboard plus other details should be considered and some knowledge is recomended).
Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
The EVGA grabbed me for whatever reason, unlike any of the others.
It's a good brand with a solid reputation because they worked hard to achieve it. So it probably won't disappoint you.
Reignman wrote:
08 Aug 2020 23:06
You've made another compelling argument here though. A 2K monitor fits better into the whole "future" theme I got going on here. The build is currently setup for 1080p, but yeah, the higher end CPU/GPU's are geared for 1440p, so that's something I need to reconsider. If I remember correctly, G-sync is only compatible with 144Hz monitors, so I could take that off the table as a concern too and open my options in the 75Hz monitor department.
G-Sync isn't tied to an specific max-refresh ratio for monitors; but as it has an extra cost and it's aimed for gaming, use to be present mostly on high refresh ratio performing monitors. Anyways, if you work with your computer on media workloads, I would definitely aim for a media oriented monitor.

Fun fact is that the one you chose, even gaming oriented, has an over the average brilliance and color calibration out-of-the-box. For it's price, not bad at all even I would prefer to purchase a 2K thinking in the future ("just" full HD seems me from the past now). Problem is that... damn, it's hard to find monitors because webpages are awful when sorting that stuff. I did it just by curiosity and ended being a pain in the ***. The only webpage I found with a decent filter options for monitors has been the NewEgg one, where searching a bit I found this one: https://www.newegg.com/acer-v277u-27-qh ... 6824011270 By specs over the paper, except for the refresh and the mounting support, it's way better than the one you chose for a fraction extra of cost. I couldn't say anything of their real performance or accuracy though. The other webpage a bit decent was Dell one (they have good monitors indeed); but of course you can browse just their models and are significantly more expensive than the others we mentioned.

Regards

PS: Lots of years ago I was talking to another friend of mine, IT guy too, when we were looking to purchase our new computers for that time. After a lot of time searching and checking, he said me: Bless the ignorance. If we had got no idea of computers, it had been weeks we had purchased one at Mediamarkt and we were happy even if it would had been a crap of a computer. He was so true... :|

EDITED: Some fixes on the RAM speeds explanation where I wrote some wrong statements before and others not clear enough.

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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#9 Post by Reignman » 11 Aug 2020 02:08

I guess I should try to better clarify my goal, or what my thinking is for this build. I know it's a fools errand to try and "future proof" a PC, but that's what this fool is going to try to do anyway lol. The "future proof" is a bit misleading however, because I want to design a PC with parts that already exist. Parts considered "top tier" by today's standards, but parts that I don't actually plan to acquire for another 5 years, or whenever they're more affordable. When they'll be considered "mid tier" xD. And in the meantime, substitute those future parts with parts that are considered "mid tier" right now. Does that make sense lol?

In other words, design a Ryzen 9 3900x, RTX 2080ti type PC now, but then roll with a Ryzen 5, 1650 Super (or whatever) until those superior parts are more affordable. But that means I have to buy some "top tier" parts now, parts that aren't as easy to replace later, like the motherboard. A motherboard that might come with technology I won't take advantage of now, but might later, like PCIe 4.0. And one that has the necessary room to expand, like for more RAM, SSD's, HDD's etc. I'm thinking the same thing with the monitor. The 144Hz with G-sync/FreeSync isn't so important now, but they might be later. Do I pay $200-250 for such a monitor now, or do I buy a $150 75Hz monitor now, then a new $150 144Hz monitor later when they're cheaper? Possibly.

TL;DR What's the best way to get to my 1440p "top tier" goal, 5 years from now, without suffering until I get there, and without wasting too much money? For example, if my goal is to eventually have the Ryzen 9 3900x, it would cost me $430 right now, and it would be 5 years old in 5 years. Or I can get along just fine the next 5 years with a $155 Ryzen 5 3600, and get the Ryzen 9 when it's what? What will a Ryzen 9 cost 5 years from now? If it's below $275 then I come out ahead and have a brand new Ryzen 9 instead of one that's 5 years old.

I quickly checked out some rumors about how much Zen 2 prices will drop once Zen 3 hits the market and I'm seeing 10% maybe. But you also mentioned holiday deals, so I'll have to look into that too. I'll have to see what kind of deals were offered last year. If I could work my way into an 8 core Ryzen 7 for the same price, that might make the wait worth it haha.

Zen 3 is apparently the last before AMD goes with a new socket and DDR5, but I should be able to comfortably get by with Zen 2 CPU upgrades for the next 10 years, I'm thinking. By the time I'm ready for the new sockets, it'll be time to build a whole new rig anyway.
Some newbie driver wrote:
09 Aug 2020 00:59
Of course, if you are having problems with your computer and NEED it working (not just a desire, but need it for your work); then you will have to deal with what you find now.
I'm not having any issues with the current PC other than I'm limited in what I can do, and I'm starting to feel it xD. Like I can't upgrade to ATS 1.38 for example lol. There are a few other games I'd like to try. And I can't really do any video editing/rendering atm. I can't record game footage so I have to rely on screenshots. I did have my first BSOD in a long time last week. Went to shut it down like normal for the night and it just hung on the "shutting down" screen for about 10-15 minutes before finally rebooting on it's own and coming back up with a BSOD message. There's no signs of it dying on me though. Never crashes or freezes up. I finally just got that itch to move onto something new. Spending all this time researching and looking at parts lately has just made the itch a little more intense lol.

I'm also stuck on Windows 7 until I get a new PC. Like I said, I don't reformat older HDD's because it's just too time consuming going through them to find what I need to backup, so I just get new HDD's when I want to start fresh, so I don't lose anything. Then I pull things off the old HDD's when I need them, or when I remember to. I do backup the more important things from time to time, copying them to a 2nd HDD, or my external. I'm just not as organized as I'd like to be, and it would be too time consuming to get there.
Some newbie driver wrote:
09 Aug 2020 00:59
One option could be to let the monitor upgrade for later. Another one I guess is to purchase a second hand VGA for 30 or 40 bucks
I'm not comfortable enough to buy used hardware lol. I'd rather spend a little more for the peace of mind and warranty, not that new hardware is always a guarantee. And my current monitor has a max resolution of 1600x900, which is pointless for a 1080p rig lol.
Some newbie driver wrote:
09 Aug 2020 00:59
Also the SSD because there's a big price gap on those with DRAM cache.
Yep, from what I've seen now, the DRAM almost doubles the prices, so that's something I'll have to sacrifice for now xD.
Some newbie driver wrote:
09 Aug 2020 00:59
Too many times I've seen people spending 2.000€ or more in a "gaming" rig to see them playing through awful wi-fi setups
I don't get into any of the online gaming, so that's not a concern. Obviously I can't play AAA or even A titles with my current rig anyway lol, but it's not something that interests me even if I could. Believe it or not, I can play GTA V on this machine though, and on some decent settings. I prefer single player games, and ones that don't require connecting to a server. The onboard WiFi feature was a "just in case" thing or bonus feature. Otherwise I'm connected through an ethernet cable at home. Me and some friends get together occasionally to have a LAN weekend, where we play mostly older games because we all have older rigs. It's the only time I enjoy playing multi player games.
Some newbie driver wrote:
09 Aug 2020 00:59
There's also something I forget to mention before. B450 chipset motherboards were the "normal" ones for Ryzen 2nd Gen (that's why the BIOS update needed for 3rd Gen)
I looked more into it and the X570's are the only ones that offer the PCIe 4.0. Something I don't need now, and might never need, but just in case. The MB is the one part I don't want to have to replace in 5 years, so the one I get now has to work well with the future rig I plan to have. On the other hand the B450's support the Ryzen 9's so I'll dig a little deeper.
Some newbie driver wrote:
09 Aug 2020 00:59
But if your concern is value per price; AMD beats NVidia at your budget. I suggest you to look at Tom's Hardware graphic cards roundups. There's lots of places that do reliable reviews, but almost no one like them who take 40 different GPUs of all tiers and test them together presenting a tiered results so anybody could know where each card fits. And they did one recently for cards in the market in 2020.
I'll give it a look, but AMD will have to blow Nvidia out of the water to make me consider changing. I'm not just looking at the present or my current budget with this build, I'm thinking 5 years down the road. I'll get a budget GPU now, but when the current RTX 2080's or RX 5700's are cheaper 5 years from now, I plan to upgrade, so I am interested in the performance of the top tier cards as well. I could always switch to AMD then too.
Some newbie driver wrote:
09 Aug 2020 00:59
Actual SSD use to be TLC or even QLC architecture; that allow more data density at cheaper price but significantly reduces performance and lifespan.
That was one of the things I researched, SLC, MLC, TLC, and QLC, and how they relate to lifespan, but unfortunately that piece of information is difficult to find in the "spec" section when looking for an SSD. I always assume QLC when it's not listed. Plus I'm sure QLC is standard in most of the larger SSD's these days anyway. I'm guessing I'm not going to find a 1TB stick of M.2 SSD using SLC? Maybe a SATA SSD will have it? I'd still rather have an M.2.
Some newbie driver wrote:
09 Aug 2020 00:59
Well, now that you detailed a big more what you do with your rig, those 32GB have more sense, even if not immediately, soon you will need them. Anyway, anything but to work on single-channel.
I'm trying to minimize waste, which is why I thought a single stick of 16GB over 2x8GB, even if it means sacrificing the dual channel performance. From what I read, dual channel only gives you a few percentage points in performance over single so it didn't seem as important. I would eventually have to throw away 2x8GB sticks ($60) if I want more than 32GB of RAM, if I went that route. I'd rather get 2x16GB even if it's overkill for now because it's something I'll eventually have anyway, and then I don't have to throw anything away unless I want to get over 64GB.

And now that you mention 3600 being the sweet spot for Ryzen, that will only cost about $10 more than the 3200 for 32GB (2x16). I'm always seeing 3200 RAM paired with the Ryzen 5 though, so that's why I went with that speed. Do the B450's support 3600? And I did read somewhere about how RAM needs to be set in the BIOS to take full advantage of it's rated speed (technically overclocking), so it'll be something I do even though I'm not big on overclocking. I'm definitely not going to OC the CPU or GPU.
Some newbie driver wrote:
09 Aug 2020 00:59
G-Sync isn't tied to an specific max-refresh ratio for monitors; but as it has an extra cost and it's aimed for gaming, use to be present mostly on high refresh ratio performing monitors.
It's not easy to find a 75Hz G-sync compatible monitor lol. And I'm thinking because it wouldn't be that important on a monitor that can only display up to 75FPS. I'm not a serious gamer and don't plan to be, so I might just go with a 75Hz monitor and not worry about any kind of sync, unless I find one on sale for under $200 in the near future. Because now I'm leaning more toward the 2k side of things like you suggested. I'm shooting for 1440p down the road after all, so it would be nice not to have to buy a new monitor later.
Some newbie driver wrote:
09 Aug 2020 00:59
PS: Lots of years ago I was talking to another friend of mine, IT guy too, when we were looking to purchase our new computers for that time. After a lot of time searching and checking, he said me: Bless the ignorance. If we had got no idea of computers, it had been weeks we had purchased one at Mediamarkt and we were happy even if it would had been a crap of a computer. He was so true... :|
Too true. I remember back in the day when I'd just walk into a Best Buy and grab a pre-built PC off the shelf when I wanted a new one lol. To be fair, that was before building your own PC was common, and if you did, you had to order parts from a catalog. They certainly didn't have "part pickers" or compatibility warnings. This will be the 4th PC I build myself in the past 20 years. When I look at pre-built PC's now, I can't believe how much you have to pay for essentially the same parts xD. Some places will even charge $200 just to build a PC for you.

But anyway, thanks again for all the input on this. You've helped me delay the itch a little longer, and armed me with more knowledge. I have a lot more to consider and research. I want to squeeze every drop of performance I can out of all the parts, with the ability to upgrade as I go, so I can hopefully get something that will last 10 years or more. My current PC lasted 12 years, but my inability to really upgrade any of the parts made these last few years more miserable than they had to be lol. Damn you Intel. So it's important that this next one is upgradable, to minimize the misery near the end of it's lifespan.

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Reignman
Posts: 252
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#10 Post by Reignman » 11 Aug 2020 05:33

Oh wow, talk about jinxing yourself. My PC just froze up requiring a reboot lol. Hasn't done that in over a year, and just hours after I brag up it's reliability. I wasn't even doing anything intensive, just posting a message on another message board. Well I did say it was due for a cleaning, and yeah the CPU fan/heatsink are looking a little dusty now that I look.

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