Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

plykkegaard
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#71 Post by plykkegaard » 12 Sep 2020 19:27

Speaking of games which does not truly support multicore, you should look at clock speed and cache above number of cores
Some very old 737 liveries and other old ETS stuff
http://looksharp.dk/page/ETS2-Model-packages

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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#72 Post by Reignman » 12 Sep 2020 19:48

Ok, gun to your head, which of these motherboards would you get?

The ASUS X570 that I originally wanted ...

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/TUF-GAMING-X570-PLUS/

Or this Gigabyte B550 that recently caught my attention ...

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/B5 ... ITE-rev-10

Side by side comparison here ...

https://pangoly.com/en/compare/motherbo ... orus-elite

The X570 has more PCIe 4.0 lanes, but I think the B550 has just enough to fit my needs too, unless I plan to use both M.2 slots eventually. The B550 has the faster max LAN speed, but fewer USB 3.2 ports, doesn't have a type-C port, or a ps2 port, and it has fewer SATA ports. Most of that I'll probably never use, except maybe the SATA ports. Do I need 8 or can I get by with 4? USB 2.0 provides more than enough speed/response for a mouse and keyboard, so I don't know why I'd need so many 3.2 ports.

My case includes 4 more USB ports (2x 2.0 and 2x 3.1 gen 1), so the X570 would work better there, again, not that I'll use them.

I had my mind set on the ASUS X570 because it scratched every itch I had for a motherboard that's in my $160 price range. There's only one thing bothering me about it though, and that's the location of the chipset fan. As I mentioned earlier, ASUS put it right next to the top PCIe slot, where the GPU goes, so as soon as you plug in a GPU, it's going to completely cover the intake of that chipset fan, and I don't know how that's going to affect the thermals. I can't find much about it online, but that seems like a pretty egregious design flaw by ASUS lol. The case will have plenty of ventilation and air flow, I'm not doing any overclocking, and I don't think I do anything too intensive, so maybe it'll be fine. I can't remember if the fan is off until it's needed, or if it runs all the time.

I did find a more compact, 2 fan GPU that doesn't quite cover the chipset fan as much, and it's tapered upward a bit at the end so I thought that could help too, but it turns out that GPU doesn't have a backplate lol, so there goes that idea. It was the only GPU short enough unless I start looking at the single fan/blower GPU's typically meant for itx builds, which I don't want to do.

So now I'm looking at the B550 boards. They're newer, and the chipset is cooled with just a heatsink, so no fan to worry about. Because that was the other thing I didn't like about the X570's, the fact that they even have a chipset fan. What happens if that stops working? Are they easy to replace? What's going on with the X570's that they need a chipset fan where the B550's don't?

The other selling point about this particular Gigabyte model is it's currently on sale for $144 lol. That's $15-20 more I can put toward a better GPU or more RAM.

But which board is better for future proofing? My goal is to eventually have an R9 3950x and a RTX 2080ti (or depending on what kind of Gen 4 is available later and a 3070) plugged into it. And I'll most likely be using both M.2 slots. Damn that chipset fan.

Some newbie driver
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#73 Post by Some newbie driver » 12 Sep 2020 20:01

Well it's not good to get stick to a brand just because the brand (and to be fair, I've been using AMD only for quite long for my personal computers). At the end, we should purchase what it fits better our necessities and budget.

Problem with Intel is, even they use to had the best performance for long time periods, their performance per dollar had use to be worse almost always. So, for a personal computer with a limit in budget that it's not a professional tool to make money and that doesn't require the maximum peak performance; AMD use to be a better choice in most scenarios. And not just because the CPU, the prices of motherboards and the artificial limitations that Intel insist to force in "lower" chipset tiers (compared with AMD, that you have all the features available in all chipsets of a generation), makes the whole choice way more price-worthy.

The best demonstration of how recent prices of Intel CPU doesn't reflect it's real value is the enormous price cut they made on 9th gen high-tier CPUs when they saw the AMD competence was pushing them out of the ring. Such cut still make people more angry, because it was a clear statement of the overprice they had to pay all the years that AMD was not a real competition with the FX. Now we have competence, that's good for us, but it would be good only if the competence keeps existing. In the very hypothetic scenario where AMD swept out Intel for a long time on the desktop market or even on the mobile one, we can't be sure that AMD would not fall in similar nasty practices abusing of its position.

Regards

EDIT: Answering @Reignman: price per price, take the X570. The B550 option only has sense if you are going to save money. Yes, the fan position it's a bit lame (it's not the first time I've a problem with a chipset fan on an ASUS motherboard, but for other reasons). And yes, the fan is needed because that chipset running at PCIe 4th gen generates more heat than the B550 where the chipset only runs PCIe gen 3 links. Even the fan only runs when necessary and, of course, it's properly monitored (if you use the mobo monitoring software). That's also the reason B550 motherboards have less high-speed USB and less SATA ports among other things: not enough bandwidth between the CPU and the chipset where some of those devices are linked. More than 4 SATA ports is pretty unnecessary today with NVMe devices unless you need a lot of secondary storage. And lots of USB high-speed ports are also not so necessary in most cases, but the Type C is a future-prof inclusion that B550 motherboards would not have. So, as I said, price per price, don't take the B550 and don't worry so much about the fan. Even the beefiest GPU isn't going to block the ventilation it needs; it's not so much, it's just that it's not enough with passive cooling.
Last edited by Some newbie driver on 12 Sep 2020 20:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#74 Post by Reignman » 12 Sep 2020 20:08

GT182 wrote:
12 Sep 2020 19:16
Reignman, I bought my Ryzen 5 back in August... 2nd week. It might have been cheaper to buy it in PA at the Micro Center but seeing I already bought it I didn't even look at their prices.
Lucky bastard. I'm kicking myself for not buying them when I seen them that low back in July, but I had just started this journey and hadn't made up my mind yet. Never thought they'd cost $50-60 more a month later lol. I really screwed myself and now I don't know long I'll have to wait.
GT182 wrote:
12 Sep 2020 19:16
I know that I'd I'd never use an Intel CPU again. As always they're more more for less of a bang.
Same here. My current PC is an Intel, and when I decided to build a new one a couple months ago, I looked at the Intel i series first, but it didn't take me long to figure out the AMD Ryzen series was so much better in the bang for buck category, so it was an easy decision. Plus the future proofing/upgradability was important and AMD will be using the same socket through Gen 4, whereas Intel always rolls out a new socket every time. Which is what prevented me from upgrading my current 12 yo PC lol. Not without getting a new motherboard anyway.
plykkegaard wrote:
12 Sep 2020 19:27
Speaking of games which does not truly support multicore, you should look at clock speed and cache above number of cores
Yeah for games it's not as important, just like 16GB of RAM would be enough, but I plan to do some multimedia work with this rig too, video editing/rendering, and I work with some pretty intense spreadsheets. Plus I want to do more multitasking lol, so the more cores the better. It's also why I'm trying to squeeze into 32GB of RAM. Stupid RAM prices were supposed to drop here in Q3 of 2020, but it still hasn't budged. Some game playing would be nice too ofc, but I'm not really into any of the popular AAA titles out there, and playing them on ultra settings isn't important either. Although I say that now because I'm currently using a 12yo PC that can only handle games like ATS on medium settings lol. Who knows what I'll get into once I have more options.

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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#75 Post by Reignman » 12 Sep 2020 20:30

Some newbie driver wrote:
12 Sep 2020 20:01
Well it's not good to get stick to a brand just because the brand (and to be fair, I've been using AMD only for quite long for my personal computers). At the end, we should purchase what it fits better our necessities and budget.
Indeed, which is why I switched to AMD this time. I also looked into switching from Nvidia to AMD with GPU's, but sadly unlike in the CPU department where AMD has become king, they still seem far behind Nvidia in the GPU department, so I'm sticking with Nvidia there.
Some newbie driver wrote:
12 Sep 2020 20:01
The best demonstration of how recent prices of Intel CPU doesn't reflect it's real value is the enormous price cut they made on 9th gen high-tier CPUs when they saw the AMD competence was pushing them out of the ring. Such cut still make people more angry, because it was a clear statement of the overprice they had to pay all the years that AMD was not a real competition with the FX. Now we have competence, that's good for us, but it would be good only if the competence keeps existing. In the very hypothetic scenario where AMD swept out Intel for a long time on the desktop market or even on the mobile one, we can't be sure that AMD would not fall in similar nasty practices abusing of its position.
All good points, especially about competition. It's definitely needed. In fact I wish we had more than 2 options. We need some other companies to step up their game in the CPU and GPU departments. GPU prices are ridiculously high, and I think it's because Nvidia doesn't have much competition, even from AMD.

As far as CPU's go, and this isn't really AMD's fault, but the R5 3600 is so popular retailers are now selling them for whatever they want and they keep selling out anyway lol. C'mon Intel, help me out here. Release something affordable that can compete with the 3600, now's your chance to get back into the game.

I've been watching 3600 prices every single day for the past month at 6 different locations, and it goes up $10 every few days and they still say "out of stock". The lowest price right now is $220. They were as high as $240 in some places yesterday. Micro Center had them for $155 in July, and everywhere else they were $170. I'm watching supply and demand work in real time lol.

If I were smart, which I'm not, I should have bought a bunch of 3600's in July at the low price and started selling them now. I probably could have paid for my entire rig with the profits xD. But who knew the price would shoot up 30% in just a month? More importantly, which part will shoot up next? What part should I be buying in bulk today that I can sell for $50 more next month lol?

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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#76 Post by Some newbie driver » 12 Sep 2020 20:45

It's being out of stock probably because most of the production capacity has been switched already to produce 4th gen Ryzens for when it arrives the launch date this year. And also to produce enough chips for the new XboX and Playstation consoles too. So, less production and a stable demand cause that. Let's see if the RAM prices and the graphic cards give you soon some room.

In fact, back in time I foresaw a reduction in price for the graphic cards when they arrive, but the news from NVidia have strike so hard into the ecosystem than now the main fear is a long shortage of stock of the new cards after the first mayhem of desperate purchases in the release day (more than one online stores will end collapsed for sure, and I hope there will be no craziness on physical ones). So, maybe that price reduction will take time to arrive.

Regards

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Reignman
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#77 Post by Reignman » 12 Sep 2020 21:05

What's more interesting is, the price of nothing else has shot up like the 3600. Motherboards are flatlined, just like RAM. The price on those never seems to change. The MB I'm watching was briefly $5 cheaper once. And the B550 I found is currently on sale for $15 cheaper. The price of HDD's and SSD's never changes. GPU's don't change much either. Occasionally there's a $10 off sale. PSU's have been insanely high for months now. Nothing else has gone insane like the R5 3600. The 2600, the X, the XT, the R7's, the R9's, none of them have changed much other than the occasional sale. It's very strange. Why are the 3600's so damn popular all of a sudden lol? Is someone stockpiling them?

I don't want to have to wait until December, so I might have to start looking at some alternatives. I'll break the damn budget to get an R7 3700x because that's the only upgrade that seems worth it atm. What's the R5 3600 equivalent with Intel? I'm going to have to go look into that now because I don't see these prices coming down anytime soon. I can get the R7 if I settle for the 1660 Super and 16GB of RAM. Not what I want to do, but my options are limited. Do I dare consider an R5 2600x for $170? Wow, that's what I was going to pay for the 3600 lol. The R3 3100 is $115. I lose 2 cores there. An R7 2700x for $220? More cores, but gen 2, so no thanks. 2½ months until Black Friday lol. FML
Some newbie driver wrote:
12 Sep 2020 20:45
It's being out of stock probably because most of the production capacity has been switched already to produce 4th gen Ryzens for when it arrives the launch date this year. And also to produce enough chips for the new XboX and Playstation consoles too. So, less production and a stable demand cause that.
That's a good point, ignore my rant above, I wrote it before I saw your message. Frustration mounting lol. I feel like I can't do much with my current PC anymore, and I just want to get back to working on stuff. And it's still weird how any shortage or production shift has only affected the 3600 chips though.
Some newbie driver wrote:
12 Sep 2020 20:45
Let's see if the RAM prices and the graphic cards give you soon some room.
I hope you're right. If we see a decent drop there then I'll probably get the R7 3700x. Or worst case scenario, I at least wait to see what gen 4 options and prices are available. I hate being the first one to try new technology though.
Some newbie driver wrote:
12 Sep 2020 20:45
but the news from NVidia have strike so hard into the ecosystem than now the main fear is a long shortage of stock of the new cards after the first mayhem of desperate purchases in the release day (more than one online stores will end collapsed for sure
Haha yeah I've already seen everyone panicking about possible site crashes and being worried about not getting one. TBH it should be driving down prices already because I know tons of people have stopped buying GPU's, waiting for the new 30 series instead. The 2080ti's especially. Who's going to pay more than $500 for one those now? And that should have a trickle down effect.

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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#78 Post by Some newbie driver » 12 Sep 2020 22:03

Reignman wrote:
12 Sep 2020 21:05
And it's still weird how any shortage or production shift has only affected the 3600 chips though.
You have to understand how CPUs are manufactured. Intel or AMD (and specially AMD due it's highly modular architecture) doesn't manufacture lots of specific CPU models. They manufacture a basic design that it's common for LOTS of CPU models on the same generation and then, once tested it's performance, the final performance will be enforced depending on the test results and thus the chip will be labeled.

Let me put you a fictional comparison: Let's imagine you are Scania and you manufacture ONE SINGLE V8 engine model (all your engines are physically identical). And at the end of the manufacturing chain, all the engines are put on a power bank to test them. Those engines that are stable at medium power ratios will have 2 pistons disabled and will be labeled as 480HP for example. Engines with defects could not withstand normal operation, will have 2 pistons disabled and turbo pressure reduced and labeled as 350HP only. And engines that had ben outstandingly build could sustain more power and then will be 8 pistons actives, turbo pressure increased and labeled 730HP. And the electronics on every motor will be configured to artificially cap the engines at those HP values. Seems weird? That's exactly how CPUs are made.

AMD doesn't manufacture all those models separately, they manufacture them all together. Ryzens have a modular architecture where several modules of 4 cores (4 if I remember well) are linked around a central I/O module. Wanna know the difference between a 3600X and a 3700X? Both have 2 four-core modules but the modules on the 3600X had manufacturing defects that made one core on each module to fail or not been able to reach the base clock in stable behavior. So, one core in each module of the 3600X is disabled, that's why they have 6(12) instead of 8(16) cores of the 3700X. What's the difference between the 3700X and the 3800X? The modules on the second are of better result and they can keep stable slightly faster clock speeds. So their internal program will be marked to work at higher base clock than 3700X ones. What's the difference between 3500X and 3600X? That the modules on 3500X had damaged the logic that controls SPMT thus each core can only control 1 execution thread instead of two. That logic is forcefully disabled and done.

And yes, that means that the lower the tier you purchase, the more DEFECTIVE is the chip regarding the expected manufacturing result. Celeron/Sempron series are chips where the L3 cache modules are disables and sometimes even part of the L2, among other details (that's why they are so slow). There's no single CPU that ends being the same after the forging process; that's why overclock jerks purchase several chips of the same model and made tests with them searching for the one with the best "silicon quality". When you purchase your computer, be sure to install Ryzen Master application from AMD. You will see how it will give you information about the structure of the CPU and about which cores in each block are the best performers (those will be the primary target for turbo boost periods, jumping occasionally to second best ones to cool down). There's even one program in development by the same people than CPU-Z (If I remember well) that will test your specific CPU in your specific setup and will adjust their timings, clocks and even undervolt it to generate less heat accordingly. All the hassle and all the magic of the old O.C.pros at the reach of a few clicks.

Now AMD is producing less base 3600 probably because several of those reasons:
- They have to dedicate more TSMC manufacturing capacity to newer chips soon released, as I already explained
- They have improved their manufacturing, causing less modules to have the defects that qualify them for "lesser" models.
- They could had been improving so much the process that they even have to sacrifice better modules to lesser CPUs in order to keep a minimum stock (that's probably the reason the 3600XT on GN review worked at the rated turbo speed of an 3800XT, because it was in fact a 3800XT with two cores artificially shut down)

And that's one of the reasons the value of 3600XT models is better than just the main specifications suggest. They are, in all the effects, better quality chips than their 3600 or 3600X brothers (that's why they were released way later). And all this explanation is applied exactly the same way to any high-tech chip manufacturer for main computer components (the CPU, the chipset, the GPU, the RAM chips...). But in the case of Ryzens that's extremely noticeable due their modular construction. That's one of the reasons too they can have cheaper prices, they don't have to sacrifice a whole monolithic CPU to a lower less-profitable tier for a single defect. They just sacrifice one of the 4-cores modules. So, their manufacturing process is way more flexible and profitable even for CPUs with a very low market sales.
Reignman wrote:
12 Sep 2020 21:05
I hate being the first one to try new technology though.
Yes, I don't like to be a laboratory rat neither. It was what happened me with my old FX and that's why I waited to replace it until Ryzen 3rd gen (I was waiting for all the details to be polished enough).
Reignman wrote:
12 Sep 2020 21:05
TBH it should be driving down prices already because I know tons of people have stopped buying GPU's, waiting for the new 30 series instead. The 2080ti's especially. Who's going to pay more than $500 for one those now? And that should have a trickle down effect.
You are an informed consumer and that's why you know you should no purchase a 20 series GPU now. Of all the people you could see on a computer store, how many do you think they are informed like you? You know they will be very few. Why to lower prices now then? Let's try to sell for the full price the last possible cards before forcefully had to drop it's price. That's what retailer's managers think in those situations. Prices will not drop until release and the fear of some people is that, if the shortage is big enough, the price drop will take more time to arrive. Nobody expected the difference between previous and new gen of NVidia to be so big. NVidia has clearly noticed AMD shadow on it's back and break their artificial limits on the next-gen step-ups to try to gain as much distance as possible before AMD strikes. Counterpart of this is probably a future "40 series" will take a lot longer into arrive or the difference with 30 series will be very small and not worthy of change if having already a 30 one.

Regards
Last edited by Some newbie driver on 13 Sep 2020 10:11, edited 2 times in total.

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GT182
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#79 Post by GT182 » 13 Sep 2020 04:09

Reignman, I like this Mci Tomahawk B550 motherboard once I got it figured out with Micro Center's tech help. And I love the Corsair dual fan H80i v2 liquid cooling for the CPU.

Micro Center had the Seagate 1TB SSD for $129.95. From looking at the other SSDs, their capacity, and prices, I thought the Seagate SSD was well worth the price I paid.
Gary - CB code name: CW
I've hauled ass down the road to deliver new cars and trucks, fuel, freight, and produce. Now I'm ATS addicted to doing the same thing in a simulation. :roll:

Some newbie driver
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Re: Potential New PC Build, Thoughts?

#80 Post by Some newbie driver » 13 Sep 2020 10:31

BTW, it seems that Zen 3 4th gen of desktop Ryzen's are going to be revealed October 8th (sooner than expected)

That's for if you don't have already enough headaches choosing your computer parts. :lol:

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