Multi drop research

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Bandit & The Snowman
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Multi drop research

#1 Post by Bandit & The Snowman » 25 Sep 2020 13:40

Multi drop could already be in development for what it's worth. We never know what might be coming in the next update. Nevertheless it is time for the concept, its possible capabilities, features and consequences to be discussed and gathered in a research topic.

This topic shall be a listing of all the things implied by multi drop and will be updated with your help. Please give your thoughts and wishes and help collect facts from real life that could make it into the games.

Coding
  • matching trailer types (attachment type: fifth wheel, draw bar; suitable for the various kinds of cargo)
  • in double/triple trailer sets: mixed trailer types (by cargo compatibility but not by attachment type)
  • multiple compartments in one cistern
  • multiple cargo units on one trailer type
  • gross weight of the rig; maybe later: weight per axle according to country/state specific laws
  • what would the job search look like? how could it be integrated into the existing job search?
Modeling
  • models on open trailers
    • caveats: space, weight distribution -> also in economy/logistics
Economy/Logistics
  • matching market (online/offline), mix market types within the same online/offline type?
  • multi drop types:
    • one sender, multiple recipients
    • multiple senders, one recipient
    • multiple senders, multiple recipients
  • pick up more cargo/trailers while still hauling other cargo
  • whose property are the trailers in a double/triple set transporting multi drop loads? Do Freight Market and External Freight Market have to take care of this? No constraints in Quick Jobs and Cargo Market (and maybe eventually External Cargo Market)
  • unloading could have a time penalty if other cargo has to be unloaded to access the cargo that is to be dropped
  • will each partial delivery count as one finished job, or do we have to deliver all parts for a job to be completed? A combination of both is imaginable. (-> contracts?)
  • Cargo compatibility: Cargo types that could have an influence on each other must not be transported in the same trailer. (smell/taste, dust etc.)
More categories? Please help.
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flight50
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Re: Multi drop research

#2 Post by flight50 » 26 Sep 2020 15:03

I have to agree that I think multi drop could be in development. It will take time to develop though. With multi drop, certain things need to happen. In ATS, scales and weigh stations need to become 100% functional and have purpose. Without multi drop, this doesn't happen. A few things I have mentioned in the past that fit this thread better are below. The cargo part is an edited copy paste version from the original thread but they go with this topic.

First up, multiple trailers. I don't think we should be limited to just matching trailers. In NA, it doesn't work like that for LTL transport. Here is an example of real life. SCS should implement mix matching for double trailers for at leat 2-3 companies. As more LTL companies come to the game, the more options.

Cargo wise(original post), we need something to the affect of this to make weight a factor for multi drop. This control introduces a valid fine system.

What could happen is pre selected configurations being available at pick up. When we arrive with our TO trailers, we could have options in loads to haul from the same prefab. Instead of having 1 specific load, we get multiple option to choose from. For example:
1) Full truck load of lettuce
2) 1/2 truck load of lettuce, 1/2 truck load of potatoes
3) 1/3 truck load of lettuce, 1/3 truck load of potatoes, 1/3 truck load of tomatoes
4) 1/4 truck load of lettuce, 1/4 truck load of potatoes, 1/4 truck load of tomatoes, 1/4 truck load of onions

Fruits can be done the same as above. With options 2,3 and 4 being part of multi drop, 1/2, 1/3 or 1/4 can be dropped off to multiple locations. When we have pup doubles, , triples, RMD or TP, that gives even more options to either load them as one specific loads or load doubles 1/2, 1/3 or 1/4 full of different cargoes.

I am sure there are many other combinations of goods that can be done this way. For flatbeds, I have plenty of example in the link in my signature. But a good example would be mixed goods to deliver to the Home Store or Olthon Homes. Mixed hardware, lumber, building, etc cargoes can be loaded on dry vans and on flatbeds.

Below is a quick AutoCad drawing to explain this concept a little more. The below is a quick example of what I'm referring to. I have only six options here but instead of groups of 4, it could be groups of 2, groups of 6...a whole truck or half a truck whatever. But we should be able to manually load the truck ourshelves. I think this is what people are looking for with multi drop control. Partial loads for several drop off locations. The ability to haul what you want weight wise. I think this is how you get to play with sliding your tandems once loaded, this is how the scales at truck stops come into play and this is how weigh stations come into play to get fined for not being loaded correctly. Its an entire new game mechanic that would be required. Its more of a weight manager. You are at your own risk but you do have more control at the same time.

Something like a pull down menu per slots, or per trailer or perhaps a cursor grab and drop idea, to allow people to setup their loads. Something like this would be a huge boost to the Cargo Market and it would get a lot more people into trailer ownership. Its more customization and that is what people like....options. This market should really be driving the game almost on its own. I can get deeper for sure.

[ external image ]


Perhaps make this option available for distribution warehouses only. No point of doing this at every prefab. Distribution warehouse is where they get all the different products from manufactures in one big ole melting pot. This goes for food industry and non food industries. But warehouses/logistics could have a larger role. For us in ATS/ETS2, when we choose to haul from here, that is when we get the option to load like the above. We will need lots more manufacturers shipping to these warehouses though. This would make the amount of cargo def files needed even more. With more def files, we have way more options to load the trailers.

SCS can definitely tie this into contracts. Perhaps that's a new market they can make. Maybe even a combination of events.
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Re: Multi drop research

#3 Post by Bandit & The Snowman » 26 Sep 2020 18:19

Yes, this is what I mean, let's put all our ideas in one place. Good collection.

Cargo wise, I don't think we'll get such a fine-grained option. I don't believe there's any hauling à la carte like that. "I'd like to have 100 grams of this sausage and 150 of that and please cut it thin" ;) that's not going to work. There will be the same kind of choice that we already have, broken down into "less than a full trailer", but the individual amount will be determined by the sender and we can just choose what we want to transport.
But I agree there can be a cog wheel option menu like we already have with trailer combos.

If contracts come, there can be scenarios like "assortment #1 for the branch in Olympia, ass. #2 for Seattle and ass. #3 for Tacoma. Short distances may be more likely than longer ones. We don't mean to break into regional or local distribution though, just what's common in our métier.
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flight50
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Re: Multi drop research

#4 Post by flight50 » 03 Oct 2020 08:31

If you look at the North American Agriculture link in my signature and look at the Farming Consumables section, that's the type of loads I have in mind. SCS has to make them though. Each one of those consumables can be a pallet of something. Each carries its own weight. So where ever (x) cargo can get picked up, we could take preselected groups or we can select each load individually ourselves.
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Re: Multi drop research

#5 Post by Bob123412 » 01 Mar 2021 21:57

I agree with both of the previous posts and I am going to add my two cents.

The addition of Multi-Drop Loads (LTL) would go hand in hand with three other features, weight restrictions/proper scales, sliding trailer axles and trailer washouts. I will quickly touch on them before talking about LTL.

As far as scales go, they should respect state weight laws which vary from state to state and can be found here. Also, inspections should be randomized instead of happening on the platform. The implementation would require users to actually pay attention to how much cargo was being loaded and where it is loaded. I could dive deeper into this but that is for another topic.

This leads into the sliding of the trailer axle and maybe even the fifth wheel. This is both for both weight legality and trailer legality. Currently the options (on 53’ trailers) are full forward (Illegal in Maryland, Quebec and possibly others) or Full Rear (illegal in California and almost every state on the east coast and Canada). Now this information is harder to find from official sources although I’m not great with internet searches. Again, I could dive deeper into this but that is for another topic.

Trailer washouts (interior only) should be added. Certain cargos require a Trailer to be washed before being loaded. I could really dive into this one but that’s all I say.
I mentioned those two items because if there is consideration into implementing them the they should be taken into account when implementing LTL regardless of which is added first.

Onto the main topic at hand.

Trailers
There are 4 types of trailers: Volume, General Cargo, Vehicle and Custom

Custom
Custom Trailers are trailers that have been built for a specific purpose and can’t be used on any other type of load. None of them can be used in LTL or can be purchased by the player. They will not be mentioned again. These include Frac trailer, mobile barrier, special job trailers, etc.

Volume
Volume trailers would be trailers such as tankers, hopper, lumber, etc. Volume would be the simplest to implement when dealing with LTL as all that would need to be done would be set a load percentage and add a weight per percentage.

Liquid tankers would need a sloshing variable added which would decrease stability. Possibly more tank designs could be added and multi compartment tanks.
More solid Cargos such as grain probably would act the same as current trailers.

Lumber would be a bit different as Volume would be added in set chunks instead of any interval like the other cargos. All in all, it would function the same.

General Cargo
General Cargo trailers would be defined as Dry Van, Reefer, Container and flatbed. I’ve grouped them together because for the most part, they can all haul the same product (and I’ve seen them all haul the same product). Of course, reefer and flat bed have some unique products.

Loading of General
I like the trailer layout posted above, the biggest tweak I would make would be adding a center slot on each column that would overlap the other two, that way cargo could be centered. This is useful for weight distribution and for truck stability. To make things extra complicated I am also going to suggest half sized pallets that could be stacked on top of one another, but that may be too much.

Each slot would represent one skid (pallet) of cargo. If a skid was placed in a center slot it would make the other two slots invalid. Some cargo is wider or longer than (or both) than one skid and would take up as many slots as required. Each type of cargo would have a weight, value and center mass defined per unit.
Vans, Reefers and containers can also be volume loaded however in some cases this could increase unload time. General freight often times is loaded from floor to roof when being distributed to retail stores. It is usually offloaded by store employees. This is beneficial for load stability and for fitting as much in as possible. Company’s such as Goya or Sysco that service restaurants and small businesses Generally volume load their trucks as most of their delivery’s only consist of 5-20 boxes and are hand-bombed off the truck by the drivers. I also picked up a load of sweet potatoes that were loaded onto the floor of my truck via conveyor belt. When I delivered the load, they were offloaded with a skid steer with a bucket on. Took me a couple hours to clean all the potato out of the trailers floor rails. Furniture might also be considered volume loaded

Certain types of product can’t be transported with other product (like dangerous chemicals next to food) and in other situations customers might not allow products to be transported with other products (Walmart won’t accept a skid of pineapples on the back of a load of stinky fish but joe blow in the middle of Idaho might). Temperature controlled loads would (obviously) only be able to be transported in a reefer trailer and larger cargo would only be allowed on Flatbeds
Volume loading would allow more cargo onto a truck allowing for more picks/drops but would require more time to unload (which would be scaled to the percentage unloaded). It would also have less possible load types. Skid loading would be faster and have all cargo types but it would reduce the maximum amount of carriable cargo.

Dry Van
Dry Van trailers are simple and straight forward. They would allow loading of all cargo that does not require temperature control or is too large.

Reefer Trailers
Reefers would allow the loading of all cargo unless it is too large. There are 3 Types of reefer trailers: Single temp, Dual Temp and Triple temp. Each unit has 1, 2, and 3 different compartments respectively. Multi temp trailers have an adjustable wall inside that can be moved to adjust compartment size, which is good both for saving fuel or for transporting more of one temp than the other. The wall can also be removed to reduce the number of compartments. Cargo that could be transported in a reefer trailer would have both minimum and maximum temperature values set. For example, Frozen Peas and empty pallets in the same compartment would be fine, but TV’s and Frozen Peas wouldn’t.

Flatbed
Flatbeds are fairly simple as well. They can’t be volume loaded and can’t take certain cargos that are too unstable or require temperature control. I would also like to see some more variety of loads.

Containers
Containers are a bit of an unusual one because they are technically two trailers in one. Containers are loaded onto an intermodal trailer which mean the cargo could be either/both the container or the cargo within it. Some intermodal trailers have adjustable lengths so if sliding axles are added this should also be added. The intermodal trailer could have 2 slots which would allow for two shorter containers to be housed on it.

Some company’s use containers as if they were just regular trailers while others use them for there intended purpose, rail and sea transport. Containers can be dry, Reefer or Tanker.

Vehicle
Vehicle Trailers would be much simpler again. Truck trailer 1 vehicle = 1 slot. Car Trailer would have over lapping large/small slots.

Logistics
Loading
I touched on loading in previous sections but to summarize There are two types of loading Volume and Slot. Volume based loading would require multiple compartments to load multiple types of cargo when Loading loose things such as liquids, dirt, produce, etc. Volume based loading would not require multiple compartments to load multiple cargo types when dealing with boxed objects. Reefer compartments would not count as separate compartments in terms of volume loaded cargo. Volume based cargo would require no input from the user. Load and unload times would vary based on location, type of cargo and volume of cargo.

Slot based loading requires available slots to be able to load cargo onto the truck. When loading cargo a options prompt would appear in the same way it does when parking a trailer. The options for loading could be as follows: Automatic loading, Auto fast loading, Semi Auto, Full custom.
Automatic loading would auto load the cargo in the truck based on closest destination, with the farthest destination being at the nose. The down side to this as it may take longer to load due to extra skids being moved around.

Auto Fast would be loading the cargo in the closest slot that’s nearest to the nose of the trailer. This would allow the shortest loading times but could result in longer loading times if the first delivery gets buried in the nose. It could be beneficial to use auto fast until the last pick up and then use auto to re arrange the whole trailer.

Semi Auto would allow users to customize the destination order. If auto is selected after selecting semi auto, a prompt should come up asking whether to ignore previous custom order or continue to use the custom delivery order. Semi Auto should also have a selection of common loading patterns which would change depending on the load. These would also be added when picking up Full loads.

Custom would allow the user full control on the placement of skids within the truck bringing up a second window which would allow cargo to be dragged and dropped accordingly.

Unloading would have the same prompt but there would be no fast option.

Load/unload times should vary from location to location and would be based on total skids moved not on cargo unloaded. I also think custom (self) loading/unloading could have a lower time penalty than getting the customer to do it. Or possibly add a purchasable certification that would reduce self load time.

Logistics
I would love to see a micromanagement mode where you could select cargo, dispatch drivers, upgrade depots/buy warehouses. I could run down this rabbit hole and write a million words on how to implement it but something this complicated, in my opinion, shouldn’t be looked at until more of the map is completed. I’d be more than happy to write a post about it though. If a micromanagement mode isn’t added I think that ai employees should only work with full loads.

In terms of the way things currently work, there should be a few main ways LTL is implemented.

Full Load Pick. This would be picking up a load from a shipper. They would have a trailer pre loaded and they would have multiple delivery locations and the trailer would be left at the final drop.

Full Load delivery. This would be a bit different than how the game currently works. This could involve picking up an empty trailer at the receiver, then driving around the map making pickups before returning to the receiver. Of course, the simpler way would be having the first pick up just have the trailer there.

When a driver owns their own trailer things would change a little bit. You would either be able to accept a route, which would be a pre defined route that was mentioned above, or you would be able to build-your-own-load so to speak. The main difference between route selection with or with out a trailer would be if you owned your own trailer you would always start at the first pick and would not need to go to the receiver first.

Build-Your-Own-Load
This would implement a new cargo screen which would show all the available cargo similar to the way it is displayed now. In addition to the current information, it would also have weights, Slots required, and compatibility. There would be an option to view all available cargo or only view cargo that would fit in current trailer. This would mean cargo that requires too much space or cargo that can’t be shipped with other cargo would not show up.

An option to multi select cargo would be needed as well as a calculator output at the bottom of the screen that would show total cargo value and total cargo weight. Total cargo weight is not the same as Gross Vehicle weight. If weight restrictions are added than an option for new users that could calculate GVW and stop a driver from selecting cargo if it maxed out the vehicle. Of course, for more experienced users, or users that don’t care about fines, this would be ignored and a driver could run over weight if they so choose. Adding this would also allow the game to become a fantastic training tool for people looking to become a real driver. A user would be able to select new cargo to add to there list at endpoint during there trip which could result in a trailer never being empty as they could be picking up as fast as they deliver.

Multi Trailers
Multiple trailers Should be changed so that each trailer is its own entity instead of being one prefab. Each trailer would be able to hold its own cargo. Only certain trailers would be able to hitch a trailer behind it, however the last trailer in the train could be any existing trailer. It would be possible for users to build their own trains that would break all the rules and result in large fines for being over length. Trailers that would be able to support a trailer behind them would have an additional bumper option added when configuring the trailer which would allow trailers to be pinned up. I don’t see any need in simulating the dolly and It should appear when connecting the trailers together.

As far as delivering goes, LTL wise, there would be two ways, the whole trailer, or the load inside. In order to complete the delivery, the other trailers would need to be removed from the train and left somewhere like a truck stop. The only exception to this rule would be if a user was dropping the full trailer and int was the trailer on the end of the train.

Coupling and uncoupling would be different too. I think the current Uncouple button would be used to un pin the tractor from the train. A new hot key would be use to unpin the last trailer in the train. There would also be an option in the route advisor to unpin at a custom location within the train. This could be done by simply showing numbers with 1 being the connection of the train to the tractor. Coupling of multiple trailers could either be automatic or using the coupled/uncouple last trailer button. It might also be beneficial to have could be one and uncoupling be another so that way if trailers are not lined up a user doesn’t accidently drop a trailer. If a user builds an illegal combination of trailers than a warning should come up on the route advisor.

Building Trains in this way would also open up the possibility of picking up multiple full loads with other company’s trailers.

Other
LTL Skill
LTL should have a skill added in the same way as other cargo types. This would both unlock it and give a percentage bonus per level increased.

GPS
The GPS would need to be altered to adjust for LTL. I have suggested improvements for the GPS before but those were rather generic. The GPS would be set to either automatic or manual. Automatic mode the GPS would select the best route based on routing selection and with manual the user would select the route.

When selecting multiple picks multiple way points would appear on the GPS map. Pick up point would show up in one color and delivery points would show up in another. Numbers would appear on each of the nodes representing the order selected. Custom waypoints would be able to be placed between nodes and possibly an option to alter the order. Delivery nodes would be number automatically when using automatic or semi auto loading mode. When using custom mode then delivery nodes would be numbered based on position of cargo, but would be able to be overridden with custom routing.
An option that I said in my other GPS post about being able to toggle between total trip time and time till next waypoint would also be needed.
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Bandit & The Snowman
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Re: Multi drop research

#6 Post by Bandit & The Snowman » 02 Mar 2021 09:48

Thanks for this excellent post! Very informative and complete, and the way you explained things I think there are many details that SCS can implement without changing a 3D simulator into a turn based economic strategy game. Though I believe to have heard the term "cargo sokoban" in real life a few times ;)

Minor addition: Open trailers, curtainsiders and maybe one or two other types of trailers can be un-/loaded from the sides, so they are not subject to a specific un-/loading order or cargo sorting.

Maybe LTL will make them expand the waypoint feature of the GPS and map to all legs, not just the first one. It would be welcome regardless of LTL.
Bob123412
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Re: Multi drop research

#7 Post by Bob123412 » 02 Mar 2021 20:20

I've definitely played sokoban IRL many times. These are rough ideas I've been bouncing in my head for a while now that i finally decided to write down. I find that in order for something to be great it needs to be discussed and debated in order to be refined. It's easy to forgot or miss something obvious when trying to get everything out as fast as possible before it is forgotten.

I definitely agree about side loaded trailers. They would not be subject to unloading requirements the same way closed sided trailers would be. Of course this doesn't mean that you can completely ignore your load order. I think it would be interesting to see some physics added with LTL that would emulate a badly loaded trailer.
egulley316
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Re: Multi drop research

#8 Post by egulley316 » 31 May 2021 13:04

while this sounds good on paper, It's NOT in development and won't be until ALL states are in the game by SCS, and not mods. Furthermore, we need Major companies to come on board, like Sysco, Koch, Chaney, etec, ec, in order for this to be valid and work. Food service, retail and goods. all of it. Also, this could be regional or interstate.
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TwinShadow
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Re: Multi drop research

#9 Post by TwinShadow » 31 May 2021 23:38

Uh, we don't really need actual companies to do multi-drop. It's more of how it can work in the game because there are more than enough prefabs to be able to do some sort of multi-drop with what he have now. This could be from going from Point A to Point B, drop say a quarter of your load, drive to Point C to drop the rest of your load to complete the job in full.

Also, the amount of states in the game don't matter either because even with just the base 4 states (CA, NV, NM, AZ), multi-drop is more than possible to do.
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flight50
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Re: Multi drop research

#10 Post by flight50 » 01 Jun 2021 21:17

I totally agree with TwinShadow that we do not need all the states to do multi drop. One state alone can bring the feature. Although the companies eguley316 mentioned are great examples, they are by no means the only companies that do multi drop so this is a very false statement. The majority of trucking is multi drop. LTL is a different story.

The feature hopefully comes sooner than later though. There are zero reasons to wait until ATS has all the US in place to bring such a feature.
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