SCS General Discussion Thread

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Re: SCS General Discussion Thread

#17871 Post by 55sixxx » 01 Jul 2022 23:29

@abasstreppas Has the same point of view of the subject as I do.

Both ETS2 and ATS are games meant to be fun for all people and not to please just one tiny amount of players that want the game to become a full on harcore sim. The majority of players want a game with more trucks and maps so they can get from A to B with a lot of diversity so they won't get bored quickly or at all.

SCS has it's flaws, I definitely won't deny that... But they have it on the right path.

The thing that some people are trying to point out is that if you have a request, even if you're the only one that wants it, it's OK to ask... But don't be a pain in the bottom by bringing it up everyday, in almost every thread and then throw a tantrum when you realize is not coming anytime soon, because that's what will earn you the "Annoying" title.

Take me as an example, I mentioned the WoTR stuff yesterday and more NG DAF accessories a few days ago... Will I mention it again tomorrow and the day after and so on?? No, because I surely have better things to do, such as driving in ETS2, instead of annoying people and throwing complaint posts at the unwilling.
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Re: SCS General Discussion Thread

#17872 Post by Optional Features » 01 Jul 2022 23:52

55sixxx wrote: 01 Jul 2022 23:29 Both ETS2 and ATS are games meant to be fun for all people and not to please just one tiny amount of players that want the game to become a full on harcore sim. The majority of players want a game with more trucks and maps so they can get from A to B with a lot of diversity so they won't get bored quickly or at all.
Do you have any evidence of this? Or just an assumption? Also what do you consider a hardcore sim? Is being able to separate a group of trailers hardcore? Is being able to maneuver a character independent of the truck model and hear a clopping sound hardcore? Is wanting roads with bumps hardcore? Or how about wanting to be able to see more than one of your trucks at the same time?

I notice many people on this forum make wild assumptions about the majority of players without any hard facts to back up their statements, then they compound the issue by writing off everyone who is pointing out problems with the game and hoping for more than the current oversimplified view of trucking as desiring a "hardcore" game as though that is some kind of a slur.

We currently have a game that is competing with mobile trucking games for gameplay complexity: if wanting more than that is a problem, I don't know what to say.
Take me as an example, I mentioned the WoTR stuff yesterday and more NG DAF accessories a few days ago... Will I mention it again tomorrow and the day after and so on?? No, because I surely have better things to do, such as driving in ETS2, instead of annoying people and throwing complaint posts at the unwilling.
The things repeated on the forum cover a wide range of issues, from a lack of cargo (the point of the game) to a lack of drops (the point of the game) to the desire for any level of interaction with the truck, trailer, load, or environment.

You won't see me pointing out specific issues with the Pete 389 model every day, but larger issues I do try to keep in the public discourse.

Overall, the difference between my perspective and some others here is I realize that people can be easily satisfied (if they are at all) with something to which they have no reference point.

I cannot play the trumpet. If you hand me a trumpet and ask me to judge its quality, I wouldn't know where to begin. And if I were to learn to play the trumpet using this instrument you provided, I wouldn't know whether or not I was using quality equipment until I actually became proficient at playing.

On a different note, I have some limited experience running motor graders. If I hopped into one right now, even after a significant break, I could still quickly remember what I know and get back to work. With this in mind, I have a qualified opinion on what I like and don't like in a motor grader. And there are certain brands and models that I prefer and some I don't. Again, if you take a person off the street and hand them the keys, they won't be able to give a qualified opinion on whether what you provided is good or bad.

That raises the point that many if not most SCS players aren't truck drivers, don't know truck drivers, don't observe truck drivers, and don't play the game that much either. So when you ask a person that doesn't play or know what they think about something, they'll probably say, "it's great."

Give them some time to play, though, and they start to find things they'd like to do.

Lowboys in the game are a great example. There are two people in the community with a detachable neck lowboy that works. Most people who haul lowboys in game are used to backing them into docks. And most people who play the game have probably never seen a lowboy break down to unload something.

So without a point of reference, many players probably would think the lowboys in game are perfectly fine backing a buldozer up to a warehouse door. They've never seen these mods; they've never watch a youtube video showing one work, and they've never played a game where they do work.

I work in an industry where lowboys are a primary means of transportation. I've helped take chains off lowboy loads; I've personally loaded and unloaded lowboys, and I have seen lowboys work many a time more. Plus, I've played other games with trucks and lowboys where the lowboys do break down and allow for realistic loading. Therefore, when I look at a lowboy in game, I can say based on experience, this could be better. And many people with the same experience would agree.

Does an SCS lowboy have to be fully functional? No. But it should reflect the reality that they aren't typically loaded from a dock.

That isn't wanting a hardcore sim: that's just wanting two attachers as opposed to one.
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Re: SCS General Discussion Thread

#17873 Post by 55sixxx » 02 Jul 2022 00:24

seriousmods wrote: 01 Jul 2022 23:52 Do you have any evidence of this? Or just an assumption? Also what do you consider a hardcore sim? Is being able to separate a group of trailers hardcore? Is being able to maneuver a character independent of the truck model and hear a clopping sound hardcore? Is wanting roads with bumps hardcore? Or how about wanting to be able to see more than one of your trucks at the same time?

I notice many people on this forum make wild assumptions about the majority of players without any hard facts to back up their statements, then they compound the issue by writing off everyone who is pointing out problems with the game and hoping for more than the current oversimplified view of trucking as desiring a "hardcore" game as though that is some kind of a slur.

We currently have a game that is competing with mobile trucking games for gameplay complexity: if wanting more than that is a problem, I don't know what to say.

The things repeated on the forum cover a wide range of issues, from a lack of cargo (the point of the game) to a lack of drops (the point of the game) to the desire for any level of interaction with the truck, trailer, load, or environment.

You won't see me pointing out specific issues with the Pete 389 model every day, but larger issues I do try to keep in the public discourse.
Probably a mix of evidence/assumption... And for me a hardcore sim is something like IL2 Sturmovik 1946... That game is a nightmare to fully master and hard as heck even on easy mode and even though driving and maneuvering a truck pales in comparison to driving and mastering a jet fighter or whatever... For beginners and more casual players, ETS2 and ATS being on that level of realism, would be terrifying.

Separating doubles/triples is not hardcore to be completely honest and if anything, makes things a whole lot easier for unexperienced drivers and it's a feature I would really like to see in-game as long as it's in the same way we have single trailer parking currently. (Different key binds for each trailer but still the same animation and etc). And for the others: Nope, no, and hell no... I even asked for those a long time ago.

BUT, I do think some aspects are more important than others. More cargo, more WoTR interactions, more dropping points/multi drops, for me, take the top of the list because those are the ones I actually care about and would make the overall gameplay more fun and engaging. More interactions with the truck is nice, I even think SCS should look at a real truck dashboard and copy all the features and options they have into the game, such as lane departure warning (Annoying little thing for me but would increase realism and would be fun for others), auto headlights, hill start assist, cab lights, catwalk lights to make attatching a trailer at night easier, cameras on certain spots of the truck that are accessible through the infotainment/media screen of the dash, functional drop down shades when the sun is hitting you straight into the eye, ability to move from one seat to the other.

Regarding trailers, the one things that takes the cake is an actual ability to adjust the back wheels how you like it by driving forward or backwards instead of having just all the way to the front or the back.

The last two (Load and Environment), for me, it's a pass.
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Re: SCS General Discussion Thread

#17874 Post by Optional Features » 02 Jul 2022 00:39

55sixxx wrote: 02 Jul 2022 00:24 Probably a mix of evidence/assumption... And for me a hardcore sim is something like IL2 Sturmovik 1946... That game is a nightmare to fully master and hard as heck even on easy mode and even though driving and maneuvering a truck pales in comparison to driving and mastering a jet fighter or whatever... For beginners and more casual players, ETS2 and ATS being on that level of realism, would be terrifying.
DCS world is another game like that. Arma III was like that for me. Gold Rush the Game.

That's not the kind of game I am calling for either, nor do most people who are accused of wanting a hardcore sim. We just want a game on the level of competing simulators on the market (in different genres).
Separating doubles/triples is not hardcore to be completely honest and if anything, makes things a whole lot easier for unexperienced drivers and it's a feature I would really like to see in-game as long as it's in the same way we have single trailer parking currently. (Different key binds for each trailer but still the same animation and etc). And for the others: Nope, no, and hell no... I even asked for those a long time ago.
Exactly: I see these features as basics. The game should be expected to have them, so if we're years into development and they aren't even hinted at, what is going on?
BUT, I do think some aspects are more important than others. More cargo, more WoTR interactions, more dropping points/multi drops, for me, take the top of the list because those are the ones I actually care about and would make the overall gameplay more fun and engaging. More interactions with the truck is nice, I even think SCS should look at a real truck dashboard and copy all the features and options they have into the game, such as lane departure warning (Annoying little thing for me but would increase realism and would be fun for others), auto headlights, hill start assist, cab lights, catwalk lights to make attatching a trailer at night easier, cameras on certain spots of the truck that are accessible through the infotainment/media screen of the dash, functional drop down shades when is hitting you straight into the eye, ability to move from one seat to the other.
And I would like much of the same. I like being able to roll down the windows. Adjusting other things in cab would be amazing.
Regarding trailers, the one things that takes the cake is an actual ability to adjust the back wheels how you like it by driving forward or backwards instead of having just all the way to the front or the back.

The last two (Load and Environment), for me, it's a pass.
Well, if SCS removed the F7 limitation for loaded trailers, we would have sliding trailer axles already. Technically, we already do, but they only work when unloaded. SCS even classes a trailer with axles slid as a new trailer config, and makes it impossible to store in a garage in certain states.

But all of these things we agree on, and I'm sure there are more.

Many people want a walk mode. I want a walk mode. Some people act as though a walk mode in game would force them to manually check each tire or adjust each strap's tension.

For one thing, a walk mode would allow us to read some of these signs at scenic viewpoints without having to go into screenshot mode. Again, I don't see that as a hardcore feature, at least not in that application.

And even in my favorite game to compare to, Farming Sim, walking and cargo straps means I walk next to the trailer and hit a hotkey to spawn a pre-tightened strap over a pallet. And the same to release it. It's a nice little touch that makes it feel like I'm securing my load.
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Re: SCS General Discussion Thread

#17875 Post by harishw8r » 02 Jul 2022 02:30

seriousmods wrote: 01 Jul 2022 23:52 Do you have any evidence of this?
Mostly past history. Most of the forum members are veteran players who have been playing this game for a very long time, they know how things have changed and also, they have been for quite a long time to understand how things work with SCS.
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Re: SCS General Discussion Thread

#17876 Post by xeviax » 02 Jul 2022 03:10

oldmanclippy wrote: 01 Jul 2022 21:12
xeviax wrote: 01 Jul 2022 17:49 Can someone confirm this, if I activate a DLC when I am in the beta, do I have to do it again when I will move back to the normal version(regular/stable build again? I have bought a few DLCs today. :D
If you mean activating in World of Trucks, then yes I would imagine (I do not know for sure so don't take my word for it) you will have to do it again in the normal build since they use different WoT instances. But that's just to tell the server that, for example, you own the Oregon DLC so the server can show you jobs to and from Oregon. You still have the DLC no matter what for regular offline jobs.

On second thought I am thinking this is probably incorrect.
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Re: SCS General Discussion Thread

#17877 Post by Optional Features » 02 Jul 2022 03:41

werewoooooooolf wrote: 02 Jul 2022 02:30
seriousmods wrote: 01 Jul 2022 23:52 Do you have any evidence of this?
Mostly past history. Most of the forum members are veteran players who have been playing this game for a very long time, they know how things have changed and also, they have been for quite a long time to understand how things work with SCS.
So no evidence, only guessing based on personal preference and being around a long time? Got it.

By the same logic, horse and carriage companies were in great shape just before Henry Ford introduced the Model T.

They had been around a long time and knew what people wanted out of transportation. Or so they thought.

I'd suggest reading some of the comments in ATS groups and on the SCS social pages.

One guy posted in one large group that he's burned out and struggling to play: a handful of the replies.

[ external image ]

None of these people probably are on the forum, and likely none of them probably have posted a steam review lately. But they clearly are not satisfied.
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Re: SCS General Discussion Thread

#17878 Post by Wolfi » 02 Jul 2022 04:03

seriousmods wrote: 01 Jul 2022 20:49 I have seen literally no one asking for SCS to implement a system where players had to manually use the restroom. So that is a strawman that has no relevance to this discussion.
In the context of abass post it was most likely an over exaggeration. That said, believe it or not, there were actual requests to add such feature, usually connected with "the need to eat" and other Sims-like ideas.

Requesting new things isn't bad. It gives SCS an overall idea what the community wants/needs. I do agree with 55sixxx here though. If a single person (or a group of the same people) keep posting the same requests almost daily in multiple threads, such request looses validity and becomes more of a meme than anything else.

I'd also like to say that every request needs some proper research and evaluation, because requested features can quickly become issues. I'll bring here again an example for which I've been recently criticized by one of the "request trolls" - racing in Snowrunner. That was a feature requested by many people, so the devs to please the mob added it in, without any adjustments. The effect is probably the most hated update ever. If you go into any discussion you'll see that people who requested this feature now hate it. Why? Because off-road "racing" in a game with "physics" so broken that it can randomly wreck your suspension by going 30mph on a paved road, isn't a fun experience.(There are still people who enjoy it, but most agree, it was a dumb idea).
In the context of SCS games though, let's take splitting doubles. It's a fun concept and I wouldn't mind seeing it. But there are days when I just want to jump into the game and do 2 or 3 quick deliveries. If I would have to spend 15 minutes on each separating trailers then loading/unloading them 1 by 1, I would quickly stop using doubles.
So yes, it's a cool feature and if done right, it can increase the fun factor significantly. But adding a feature in the right way takes time.
And whether you agree or not, SCS tries their best to make the features right.
Let's take trailer cables. It took SCS a long time to add them, but when they did, we got a well optimised physical model that properly behaves around objects and stretches in a realistic way.
Same goes for openable windows, as much as I think it's not really needed, I have to admit it's done well. You get real life functionality, being able to open them to any degree you want. With proper animations and sounds. And exterior sounds change based on how much you open the window, or even if you open 1 or both.
You may say those are minor, but I'm yet to see any other game that did that in such a detailed way.

And as for the talk about what majority of people do, or want in the game: we are mostly making assumptions, but they are logical assumptions.
SCS has been doing the same thing for over 10 years now (with ETS2 and ATS). And after 10 years people still play their games. Don't know about you, but for me it's proof enough, that majority of the playerbase is happy enough with the experience.
If they weren't, they would simply move on to other games.
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Re: SCS General Discussion Thread

#17879 Post by SouthernMan » 02 Jul 2022 04:26

seriousmods wrote: 02 Jul 2022 03:41
werewoooooooolf wrote: 02 Jul 2022 02:30

Mostly past history. Most of the forum members are veteran players who have been playing this game for a very long time, they know how things have changed and also, they have been for quite a long time to understand how things work with SCS.
So no evidence, only guessing based on personal preference and being around a long time? Got it.

By the same logic, horse and carriage companies were in great shape just before Henry Ford introduced the Model T.

They had been around a long time and knew what people wanted out of transportation. Or so they thought.

I'd suggest reading some of the comments in ATS groups and on the SCS social pages.

One guy posted in one large group that he's burned out and struggling to play: a handful of the replies.

None of these people probably are on the forum, and likely none of them probably have posted a steam review lately. But they clearly are not satisfied.
I also saw this recently, lots and lots of responses
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Re: SCS General Discussion Thread

#17880 Post by Optional Features » 02 Jul 2022 04:44

@SouthernMan Yep, lots of people saying "play something else"and talking about what they are playing.

@Wolfi I had a decent response written up, and lost it.

Anyways, in short to your last point, without a competitor, we cannot say why people are playing SCS games. We do know that the playerbase has not really grown much for ATS in the recent has and player numbers have significantly dropped off since launch.

Blackberry was the top phone until iPhone came along: then it basically became irrelevant. Horses were the primary form of transit until Henry Ford, then that all turned on its head.

If a game came out that supported unlimited size satellite data mapping, mod script based features, and had equal or better graphics, I think SCS would struggle to compete.

They have grown comfortable with the current state of affairs and haven't made themselves impossible to compete with. They could, but haven't.

Also, re: splitting trailers. If SCS got it right, we wouldn't be towing doubles to customers. We would have the ability to upgrade a yard to a terminal with a warehouse and haul goods between that terminal and another.

Triples and doubles would be built in the yard, hauled to the next terminal, then broken up. Other trucks theoretically would complete the deliveries using those trailers or reloading those cargoes into other trailers.

Yard tractors would also become part of the game.
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