A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

Trakaplex
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A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

#1 Post by Trakaplex » 06 Jun 2022 22:42

Disclaimer: this is just a speculation.

One of the negatives and controversies of both games is that we know they are in 1:20 map scale. ATS used to be in 1:35 and in December 2016 they rescaled it to fit that of ETS2. But ever since then, in both games, there are still complaints every now and then of “missing towns”. A trucker was like, “where’s Mesquite? That’s near the Virgin River Gorge. It’s not modeled in this game,” or “I’m scared my hometown won’t be in there”. We see many of these issues, even in ATS. Colorado Springs to Denver is really condensed. A Utahan replied, “that’s not how it is in real life. Ogden is not one exit from Salt Lake. It’s a good thirty-minute drive.” People from those areas will relate with the game better. Terrain is other such obstacle, usually when it’s mountainous. And the map scale is why there is so much speculation for Texas. You also have small towns the same size of some portions of metro areas. With the omission of certain roads, doesn’t accurately simulate certain trucking routes, etc. That creates big arguments of what to fit in. Now in ETS2, it isn’t as bad, but there plenty of places that still didn’t make it.
Now we have people here on the forum asking for 1:10. But even that might not be good for them as well when their town is still missing.

1:1?

A 1:1 scale map for the world is possible but won’t be a good idea.
Of course, 1:1 is too large and tedious to build manually for a small developing team like SCS. There was a Minecraft project created in 2020 with the same theme and it barely has 100,000 buildings done. The idea of scrimmaging everything on Earth to build an in-game copy, would theoretically be impossible. For example, the amount of devs building Texas in 1:20 are about 30 (as said by Pavel), and it’s still taking over three years. To build a 1:1 scale Texas in the same timeframe, that would be about 600 to 1000 people (or more).

Only there is a game in 1:1. MFS2020. The map wasn’t built manually either. It, if I recall, was used by aerial imagery. But that game has lots of problems, such as dysfunctional buildings, bad AI. This makes up 75% of the game’s complaints. So theoretically, if we combine MFS2020 and Truck Simulator, would we get a 1:1 scale world driving map?

This has been my question for the last year, and I am glad for you all to answer it. One thing we might know, is that the imagery would need to have a MUCH higher resolution. But overall, I still enjoy 1:20 due to convenience and to see how much work SCS has put into their maps. And this is the prime reason why certain buildings don’t show up in MFS, because it’s automated.
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Some newbie driver
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Re: A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

#2 Post by Some newbie driver » 07 Jun 2022 10:07

Plain and simple, no, no way

MSFS can use that technique because the map is background scenery viewed from far distance 99% of the time and (unless one is a reckless pilot) the only thing to bee seen "nearly" and with detail are airports and airfields; something that can be feasibly modeled the traditional way. Those techniques doesn't work for a close foot on the ground point of view that SCS games have. Whatever an AI could built itself would be limited by image sources, that have their own problems too. And even if the 3D world would be perfectly built up; there would still be lifeless (mapping adds lots of details that aren't just buildings and street layouts that give realism to scene). The map would also be non functional from the point of view of navigation; such ultra-advanced-hypothetical AI could automate most of the work but there would gaps to be fixed.

Even if the AI would be able to do 99,9% of the job automatically, the existence of that 0,1% of problems would mean 100% of the job would had to be checked and on a 1:1 map that mean hundreds of thousands of man-hour work.

And all of that without even counting the near to zero playability a 1:1 map would have. That complainer about Ogden being too near from Salt Lake now would not take so much time to complain that he's bored due always driving the same places because before it rans out of free time to run it barely has time to do the 30 minute Ogden-Salt Lake City trip. People as a global entity will never be satisfied with anything, there will always be complains from one side or the other. The proposal of SCS is a scaled map, that means they can fit only 1 of every 400 units of area from real life. If people can't understand that not everything can be included and well spaced whit only a 0,25% of the original available space is people that can't be argued with. The best to do is ignore that kind of complains, period.

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Re: A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

#3 Post by pigbrother » 07 Jun 2022 10:14

Trakaplex wrote: 06 Jun 2022 22:42 A 1:1 scale map for the world is possible but won’t be a good idea.
No, is not. As stated above, you have to create the map by hand, AI is useless. I really doubt a company can afford the manpower to create such a detailed a 1:1 map. A country like Germany would take decades with 10-20 times more people than SCS has now. Machine learning sounds cool until you see the results (they are weak). I also doubt the company will be still be alive after 20 years to finish this task because it cannot sustain itself and the goal is highly risky for any venture capital investor. I also really doubt we can afford the pricetag and, therefore, I doubt there is a market for such product.

You have to understand that Google has spent tens of billions creating a standard map for Maps service. To create the same thing as a full accurate 3D environment? Maybe one day, with some future amazing AI, but we’ll be long dead by then.
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Re: A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

#4 Post by rookie31st » 08 Jun 2022 04:43

Have you seen Google's Immersive View yet?
AI is getting better and better, and soon won't look as useless. I am pretty sure that by end of this decade we will see a driving game with a massive map generated by AI
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plykkegaard
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Re: A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

#5 Post by plykkegaard » 08 Jun 2022 05:28

Please beating a dead horse hasn't helped anyone
An environment build based on world geometry would be lifeless without traffic and interaction
Sorry, nice idea but drop it to save your sanity

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VirtualTruckTravels
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Re: A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

#6 Post by VirtualTruckTravels » 08 Jun 2022 16:02

People who want 1:1 maps do not understand how boring it would be. As a long distance driver myself driving the real 1:1 map (called earth :D) it can get incredible boring when you have been on the same strecth of motorway for 6 hours and still have 2 more left before you have to exit and its night time so No seightseeing either, people really want that, i doubt it? To give an example, would you be okay with playing the game for 9 hours and you only have done 1 trip from Copenhagen to Stockholm?
1:1 maps are feasible in small scale, like grand utopia because its fictional and are filled with eye candy, the real world not that much eye candy on a 9 hours trip.
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rbsanford
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Re: A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

#7 Post by rbsanford » 11 Jun 2022 06:19

A 1:1 scale map would work best for a smaller area, like a mid-size US state (like Missouri or Ohio) or a single European country, like the UK. For reference, the land area of all the states currently in ATS, plus Montana, divided by 20, is 58,699.49 square miles (152,030.98 square km); the closest state in terms of area is Georgia, which would make for a pretty decent 1:1 scale map, and the closest European country is Greece. The land area of the entire Contiguous US, divided by 20, is closest in area to Montana, or Norway; both would make for some huge, and sometimes grueling 1:1 scale maps (with some amazing scenery, though), but make up small portions of the US and Europe. This is all well and good for planes, because they're fast and don't have to see that much detail on the ground, but there's no way entire continents would be made 1:1 scale in a driving game.

You also have to consider the hardware limitations. Just how much space would the 1:1 scale ATS and ETS2 maps take up on a hard drive? The draw distance would have to be something else, and you'd need a strong computer to render everything without much pop-in.
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Optional Features
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Re: A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

#8 Post by Optional Features » 11 Jun 2022 06:54

VirtualTruckTravels wrote: 08 Jun 2022 16:02 1:1 maps are feasible in small scale, like grand utopia because its fictional and are filled with eye candy, the real world not that much eye candy on a 9 hours trip.
It totally depends on the place. I drove over 500 miles today and during my trip saw several lakes, a couple large peaks, climbed just under 5k feet twice, and experienced a weather swing of more than 30 degrees from start to finish.

The reason maps in this game are boring isn't scale: it's interactivity. If we could do more, things would be far more interesting and the need for constant map expansions would be somewhat reduced.
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Re: A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

#9 Post by rookie31st » 11 Jun 2022 20:47

rbsanford wrote: 11 Jun 2022 06:19A 1:1 scale map would work best for a smaller area, like a mid-size US state (like Missouri or Ohio) or a single European country, like the UK.
Exactly. That's in line with what I said on Steam forums in a similar thread. Most negative comments seem to come from people who prefer the long hauls and are stuck in a long-haul mentality, thinking about the entire US in 1:1 and driving for 8 hours to get one intercity/interstate job done, failing to see the benefits of a limited 1:1 environment for those enjoying local deliveries or living in smaller countries. It could be just a 12x12 miles map and be diverse enough to offer hundreds of hours of driving and exploration, but obviously, no hours-long highway cruising which is a central feature of the American Truck Simulator.
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plykkegaard
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Re: A 1:1 Map Scale Is Feasible, But Not Manually

#10 Post by plykkegaard » 11 Jun 2022 20:52

Nothing wrong with different scales, but for this game it has to be built by hand due to how the AI tracks, intersections etc are defined

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