Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

Locked
Eggtooth
Posts: 157
Joined: 20 Dec 2012 17:44

Re: Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

#491 Post by Eggtooth » 05 Feb 2023 18:46

flight50 wrote: 05 Feb 2023 18:36 Yeah I agree that SCS does not get enough credit for things they are good at from the same crowd that points out what SCS is bad at. To criticize the devs you have to balance it. Its mostly one sided most times. There's lots missing yes but there's a lot of improvement since 2016 as well.
If anything, I didn't play ATS as much. I am a casual player who doesn't take this game that seriously, even if I try to play it in a realistic manner (yes, I am one of those very hated people that people LOVE to gatekeep against), and I have mere 300+ hours in ETS2. I had only 100 hours in ATS, until just over a year ago. I now sit at 386 hours, beating my 379 hours on ETS2.

You know why?

Because ATS has vastly improved. All the trucks, all the improvements... when I've picked it up again, I fell in love with ATS more than ETS2. The scenery in ETS2 shows it's age, and sure I need promods for it... but then I look ATS, I put on this song:
https://youtu.be/2g4tZ0Nooww and just drive across every state that SCS has released and I feel like a kid again. Like all those years playing 18WoS, and King Of The Road, then Rig'n'Roll. I've waited since 2005 for Rig'n'Roll to be dissapointed by it, then ETS2 came out and I fell in love with simulators again. Then I got bored of ETS2, waited for ATS, got mildly dissapointed, then moved on. Then picked up ATS after years and it reignited my love once more... and now as I write this, I am cruising in my new shiny WS 5700XE across Texas, listening to Boards of Canada or Southern Backtones, and just... there's no other game that makes me feel this way. This way of just being alone on the road, and just sitting by and letting the time fly.

Do I wish ATS was more than this? Yes. Will it be? Maybe. SCS needs time. Game development is not easy. I am game developer myself. I know how hard it is, but I give them time and instead of looking at them with hatred, I see wrong, I point it out and I offer what I would do, if I worked at SCS. Offer them solutions, offer something more than "waaah the game bad". I have respect towards some people like seriousmods because despite his criticisms, he offers solutions. Do I wish he was more appreciative? Yes.

Remember, like PBandJ said:

There's no other game on the market that does basics comparably good to ATS/ETS2. There won't be. Even other games that are about to come out are dissapointments. This is because there's no experience or eye for detail that SCS has. None of the developers currently on the market can capture the ingenuity, experience and eye for detail that SCS has. Expecting features that no one else has done before or since and bashing SCS for not implementing them is foolish.

Expecting others to suddenly catch up to decades of experience that SCS has is unrealistic. A lot of these devs (for example Alaskan Truck Sim devs) have no idea what makes trucking games tick and why SCS games are so popular.
User avatar
flight50
Posts: 30163
Joined: 20 May 2017 03:33
Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth, Tx - USA

Re: Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

#492 Post by flight50 » 05 Feb 2023 19:58

Pretty good post. Thanks for the reply. Yes as a developer yourself, you are in different shoes than most casuals though. Its not easy to develop on one foot and its not easy to please everyone on the other foot. With time........lots of things are possible though. What, we don't know yet. This is not the era of games on DVD's and CD's anymore. Digital, you can fix anything....if you want to. There is no annual purchases for new SCS installments. Its the same game that gets regular improvements and support. The pace is not where most of us want it but they do show effort and at this point, its better than nothing. For some, its just not the effort in areas they want. But effort is effort, like it or not. In due time, other areas will get needed improvements. Boils back to..............time.
User avatar
JeeF
Posts: 405
Joined: 08 Jul 2017 03:10

Re: Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

#493 Post by JeeF » 05 Feb 2023 20:07

Eggtooth wrote: 05 Feb 2023 18:18 Hold on. How can you move on from this and not even address this?
If a reply starts with "and then he bashed SCS" I completely ignore it. When these people start learning to attack the argument intelligently instead of the author, I'll start replying in fashion.
Eggtooth wrote: 05 Feb 2023 18:18 There's no game on the market currently that has any of the things people here are wishing for
So your argument is that we should only have the right to criticize a game for not having X or Y if we can show evidence of another competitor game that has X and Y features?
Weak argument. Specially taking into consideration ATS/ETS2 unfortunately (and very unfortunately) do not have any direct competitor.
Eggtooth wrote: 05 Feb 2023 18:18 free updates and nearly decade old update cycle with trucks and most trailers for free
ATS with all DLCs cost at the moment 232 canadian dollars. ETS2 with all DLCs cost at the moment 346.41 canadian dollars.
These two are by far the most expensive games I have on my steam, and I own 307 games.
Care to guess what the game will cost when the whole of US is released?
If your argument is "SCS is doing a lot for us for little money" I would imagine you are not very well versed in the videogame industry, or maybe only had interactions with really bad developers.
All of this is pretty funny if you consider they are asking that much money for a game that is still being built in an engine that is decades old.
I can't think of any other company doing that and asking that much money for it.
To take a screenshot of ATS and say "wow that is beautiful" is to show a clear disconnect to the current state of gaming and technology.
Makes me think the person in question doesn't have a lot of interaction with modern titles.
Eggtooth wrote: 05 Feb 2023 18:18 someone who doesn't acknowledge all the good SCS has done in the opposite extreme.
If I thought the games were FUBAR I wouldn't be here.
If you take the time to read my posts for the past year, your opinion on me will change.
Last edited by JeeF on 05 Feb 2023 20:10, edited 1 time in total.
"Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something." - Plato
Eggtooth
Posts: 157
Joined: 20 Dec 2012 17:44

Re: Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

#494 Post by Eggtooth » 05 Feb 2023 20:09

flight50 wrote: 05 Feb 2023 19:58 Pretty good post. Thanks for the reply. Yes as a developer yourself, you are in different shoes than most casuals though. Its not easy to develop on one foot and its not easy to please everyone on the other foot. With time........lots of things are possible though. What, we don't know yet. This is not the era of games on DVD's and CD's anymore. Digital, you can fix anything....if you want to. There is no annual purchases for new SCS installments. Its the same game that gets regular improvements and support. The pace is not where most of us want it but they do show effort and at this point, its better than nothing. For some, its just not the effort in areas they want. But effort is effort, like it or not. In due time, other areas will get needed improvements. Boils back to..............time.
I suspect that a lot of features that are held back are because of engine upgrade. This game runs one one core. It's obvious why a lot of the things haven't seen the light of day yet.

I will bring an example of someone who I look up to, who runs a company and has a lot of insight into how things work - Sebastian Wloch, CEO of Asobo Studio. They made Microsoft Flight Simulator, and while yes, scope of ATS and MSFS is not comparable in any shape or form, nor development team size or budget, he said on one of the streams that a lot of the system in Microsoft Flight Simulator had to be rewritten to do basically the same thing they did before. SCS has to do the same right now. They have to rewrite a lot of old code to do same things, replace the old parts with new ones too. That is a huge task to undertake for a company that is this small. Asobo has backing of Microsoft, SCS does not.

They said many times that multithread/multicore support will come, but it may not be this year, but it will. When it will, it hopefully will be glorious and open doors to a lot more. The possibilities after that will be nearly endless, the engine right now, to a degree /IS/ the problem.
Eggtooth
Posts: 157
Joined: 20 Dec 2012 17:44

Re: Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

#495 Post by Eggtooth » 05 Feb 2023 20:21

JeeF wrote: 05 Feb 2023 20:07
Eggtooth wrote: 05 Feb 2023 18:18 Hold on. How can you move on from this and not even address this?
If a reply starts with "and then he bashed SCS" I completely ignore it. When these people start learning to attack the argument intelligently instead of the author, I'll start replying in fashion.
Eggtooth wrote: 05 Feb 2023 18:18 There's no game on the market currently that has any of the things people here are wishing for
So your argument is that we should only have the right to criticize a game for not having X or Y if we can show evidence of another competitor game that has X and Y features?
Weak argument. Specially taking into consideration ATS/ETS2 unfortunately (and very unfortunately) do not have any direct competitor.
Eggtooth wrote: 05 Feb 2023 18:18 free updates and nearly decade old update cycle with trucks and most trailers for free
ATS with all DLCs cost at the moment 232 canadian dollars. ETS2 with all DLCs cost at the moment 346.41 canadian dollars.
These two are by far the most expensive games I have on my steam, and I own 307 games.
Care to guess what the game will cost when the whole of US is released?
If your argument is "SCS is doing a lot for us for little money" I would imagine you are not very well versed in the videogame industry, or maybe only had interactions with really bad developers.
Eggtooth wrote: 05 Feb 2023 18:18 someone who doesn't acknowledge all the good SCS has done in the opposite extreme.
If I thought the games were FUBAR I wouldn't be here.
If you take the time to read my posts for the past year, your opinion on me will change.

Oh boy here we go. Yeah, you really don't have any idea what are you talking about as evident in this post, attacking me with 'you have no experience' but then saying few lines earlier that you don't wish others to attack the author, which is you. Yeah, right, preach what you want others to be first, before requesting that from anyone. :roll:

You don't look at all DLC's as a whole. You look at the base game and each DLC as its own thing. As a base game, you got... pretty good updates with content, improvements and reworks of original content. I'd hate for you to see Train Simulator by Dovetail Games if we go by your logic. You're welcome to call me inexperienced, but you've shown to have absolutely zero idea what you're talking about yourself if you have no idea just how expensive as a whole is Dovetail catalogue.

If you break down each DLC and its price, yes, they are cheap, but human mind doesn't work this way. We look at a whole, instead of individual parts a lot of the time... and that's where your argument falls apart, because if you look at individual prices of the DLC and content they provide, they are actually super cheap. Incredibly so. In case of Dovetail games - they are overpriced and often reuse assets (more so than SCS), and Locos they have are buggy and incredibly unpolished. The routes they offer are short and offer NOTHING. Atleast in SCS case the DLCs offer large amounts of map content. SCS provides you content for free (trucks, ownable trailers and new trailer models that are unlicensed) that Dovetail paywalls and then releases as a buggy mess. There's a reason that game doesn't sit on "Overwhelmingly Positive" on Steam unlike ATS and ETS2. It's because Dovetail sells small content (short routes, basic unpolished locos) for horrible pricing and have audacity to release them unfinished. If you say "steam reviews don't matter", they do, they absolutely do. Bad game will always get "mostly negative" mediocre game "mostly positive" and good games, "overwhelmingly positive". Steam reviews will /ALWAYS/ reflect the game's quality. Notice how almost every DLC that SCS has released, ever, is sitting at "Very Positive". This is because there's effort and affordable price.

Oh also, it doesn't matter with who I interact, good or bad developers. This doesn't mean anything It's a cop out from you and you know it. Don't shift goalposts, because you know full well this matters little.

Good example to further ruin your argument are skins for trucks that SCS sells. They are dirt cheap, while in some games one skin can cost 20 dollars. (US dollars). Look at any other game with microtransactions. You'll find some that have cheap microtransactions, but a lof of the "freemium" games offer something that isn't worth the money (Halo Infinite).

Now to "right to criticise the game". Uh, no. Re-read the post, because you didn't read it what-so-ever and have extremely poor understanding of written word. I've said that bashing SCS for not implementing features that /YOU/ want is bad. I have long list of features that I want them to implement and I criticise them for not implementing them, but unlike a lot of people who cannot read, I don't go and say that SCS is the worst thing that happened to mankind. Not saying you do, but you completely misunderstood what my post was about and accused me of "not allowing criticism because someone else hasn't implemented it". No. That's not what this is all about. It's about the fact that PBandJ was right. There is no game on the market that has these features. Nowhere I said that SCS shouldn't be criticised, so you just put words in my mouth.

I have no intention of reading your posts. I... don't care about you enough and I hold no ill will nor any negative opinion on you. I don't care what you say, but you calling people trolls after seeing their written opinion that doesn't agree with yours, doesn't sit well with me. That and the fact that you contradict yourself. Understand that. I'll ask you kindly sir, get off your high horse and re-read my posts.
JeeF wrote: 05 Feb 2023 20:07 I can't think of any other company doing that and asking that much money for it.
To take a screenshot of ATS and say "wow that is beautiful" is to show a clear disconnect to the current state of gaming and technology.
Makes me think the person in question doesn't have a lot of interaction with modern titles.
I am adding this after re-reading your message. This just proved to me some more (as if I needed more proof), that you have no idea just how oblivious you are on how wrong you are. I realise just how insulting it is to me that you have audacity to call me 'inexperienced', while admitting that you have no idea about one of the most eggregious examples of greed in Simulator Genre - Train Simulator by Dovetail Games (together with Train Sim World 3). I beg you, stop embarrassing yourself. Train Simulator Classic. Please, just search for it, searching takes less than 10 seconds, do it, good lord. It's the exact same situation as SCS, just 10 times worse, 10 times more greedy and (no joke) almost 600 times more expensive than anything SCS has done as a whole.

Please, listen to your own advice and wisdom your profile has under each post - "Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something." - Plato
User avatar
Furious_Crawdad
Posts: 19
Joined: 06 Mar 2019 20:01

Re: Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

#496 Post by Furious_Crawdad » 05 Feb 2023 22:45

lol... his very first line says he's willing to argue a point, not trade insults, so I'll be very surprised if he replies to your post eggtooth.

Back on topic: I come back to these forums every couple of years to see whats going on and hoping maybe something major has changed to maybe entice me back into the game. I'm sad to say nothing released inthe past couple of years managedto do that. I must say I agree with the lackluster stuff here as posted above. If they want to keep releasing content on a game that looks like playstation 3 days, then they should charge accordingly for it. I haven't bought any of the dlcs released in the last few years and i'm not planning on doing so anytime soon, unless something major changes. It's depressing.
Eggtooth
Posts: 157
Joined: 20 Dec 2012 17:44

Re: Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

#497 Post by Eggtooth » 05 Feb 2023 22:55

Furious_Crawdad wrote: 05 Feb 2023 22:45 lol... his very first line says he's willing to argue a point, not trade insults, so I'll be very surprised if he replies to your post eggtooth.

Back on topic: I come back to these forums every couple of years to see whats going on and hoping maybe something major has changed to maybe entice me back into the game. I'm sad to say nothing released inthe past couple of years managedto do that. I must say I agree with the lackluster stuff here as posted above. If they want to keep releasing content on a game that looks like playstation 3 days, then they should charge accordingly for it. I haven't bought any of the dlcs released in the last few years and i'm not planning on doing so anytime soon, unless something major changes. It's depressing.
I've only responded alike after he contradicted himself. I back my arguments though, but yeah, I will be suprised too.
Optional Features
Posts: 4784
Joined: 26 Sep 2019 20:14

Re: Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

#498 Post by Optional Features » 05 Feb 2023 22:58

I think we have to be a bit honest with ourselves in regards to SCS.

ATS and ETS2, while well loved, are two of the simplest games around, and as Jeef said, with dlcs, they are quite expensive.

There are essentially three major concepts in the game (plus a handful of others that surround them).

There is truck, a vehicle with a single attacher joint, two animated windows, an animated steering wheel (not sure about pedals), and a handful of animated switches and gauges. All SCS vehicles are this very basic truck, with only a different shape differentiating them. The new 5700XE (a favorite of mine for many years) is not that much different from any truck before it and not much different from any truck to come. It's just a new shape.

The second concept we have in the game is trailer. A trailer has a single attacher joint and additional joints for longer combos. Trailers have no animated parts other than landing gear, unload and load the same, handle about the same, and again, are primarily differentiated on visual appearance. If you go to a warehouse and see a lowboy, a stepdeck, a van trailer, a curtainside, a tanker, a flatbed, and a set of reefer doubles all backed into docks, you're not looking at a bunch of different types of trailers, although they may seem different. You are looking at a singular concept (trailer) with its various visual forms.

The last concept I will mention here (but hopefully some of you will catch my point) is cargo. Cargo is an increase in trailer weight accompanied by the toggling of an object's visibility (for open deck trailers). As with truck and trailer, all cargo is essentially the same. A player can damage a load of woodchips, a load of gravel, and a load of gasoline the same as he can damage a load of cars, glass, or televisions. Cargo is cargo; truck is truck; trailer is trailer.

I could go on, but I will start to repeat myself. A warehouse is no different from a farm aside from visual objects. A gas station trigger at a truckstop and a gas station trigger at a single civilian pump have equal flow rates. A repair station can bring a 100% damaged truck and trailer to full repair at 2 am on a Sunday. A highway in Texas has the exact same road surface as a two lane in Oregon. And the list goes on.

The biggest challenge for a developer competing with SCS would be creating a sizable map and acquiring the official approval of truck brands.

The gameplay itself couldn't be made much more simple.
Last edited by Optional Features on 05 Feb 2023 23:43, edited 2 times in total.
Eggtooth
Posts: 157
Joined: 20 Dec 2012 17:44

Re: Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

#499 Post by Eggtooth » 05 Feb 2023 23:01

seriousmods wrote: 05 Feb 2023 22:58 I think we have to be a bit honest with ourselves in regards to SCS.

ATS and ETS2, while well loved, are two of the simplest games around, and as Jeef said, with dlcs, they are quite expensive.

There are essentially three major concepts in the game (plus a handful of others that surround them).

There is truck, a vehicle with a single attacher joint, two animated windows, an animated steering wheel (not sure about pedals), and a handful of animated switches and gauges. All SCS vehicles are this very basic truck, with only a different shape differentiating them. The new 5700XE (a favorite of mine for many years) is not that much different from any truck before it and not much different from any truck to come. It's just a new shape.

The second concept we have in the game is trailer. A trailer has a single attacher joint and additional joints for longer combos. Trailers have no animated parts, unload and load the same, handle about the same, and again, are primarily differentiated on visual appearance. If you go to a warehouse and see a lowboy, a stepdeck, a van trailer, a curtainside, a tanker, a flatbed, and a set of reefer doubles all backed into docks, you're not looking at a bunch of different types of trailers, although they may seem different. You are looking at a singular concept (trailer) with its various visual forms.

The last concept I will mention here (but hopefully some of you will catch my point) is cargo. Cargo is an increase in trailer weight accompanied by the toggling of an object's visibility (for open deck trailers). As with truck and trailer, all cargo is essentially the same. A player can damage a load of woodchips, a load of gravel, and a load of gasoline the same as he can damage a load of cars, glass, or televisions. Cargo is cargo; truck is truck; trailer is trailer.

I could go on, but I will start to repeat myself. A warehouse is no different from a farm aside from visual objects. A gas station trigger at a truckstop and a gas station trigger at a single civilian pump have equal flow rates. A repair station can bring a 100% damaged truck and trailer to full repair at 2 am on a Sunday. And the list goes on.

The biggest challenge for a developer competing with SCS would be creating a sizable map and acquiring the official approval of truck brands.

The gameplay itself couldn't be made much more simple.
Well, sometimes beauty is in simplicity, however I agree with this post.
Optional Features
Posts: 4784
Joined: 26 Sep 2019 20:14

Re: Are you satisfied with the direction in which the game is developing

#500 Post by Optional Features » 05 Feb 2023 23:08

There is beauty in simplicity, but this is too simple.

I shouldn't be able to unload a buldozer at a warehouse by backing up to a dock. I shouldn't be able to pick up grain from a grain elevator without opening the tarp. I shouldn't be able to descend a mountain without picking the right gear and the right jake brake setting.

In every area of this game, game engine independent, scs could improve. The engine is an excuse. We don't need a new engine for many things that would make the game better. Farming Sim has a terrible engine and is a much more enjoyable game to play long term. An improved engine is only capacity for SCS to improve, but they have yet to reach their potential with the current engine.

Here's a thread I did on just the Cascadia. None of this would require a new game engine, but it would make owning a Cascadia a taste of owning the real thing. I even missed some parts like a sliding fifth wheel. Why do need a mod to move the fifth wheel forward every time a new truck comes out?

viewtopic.php?t=310781

To return to the topic of trucks, look at this pic I got from Reddit. Look at the steering angle of this T680. Does your ATS truck look like this?

[ external image ]
Last edited by Optional Features on 05 Feb 2023 23:18, edited 1 time in total.
Locked

Return to “General discussion about the game”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: harishw8r and 11 guests